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Strength Ratio of Quads and Hams
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sinan

Does any one know the strength ratio of quads to hams during a front squat, back squat, sissy squat, leg press and deadlift (stiff and bent). Also what is the advantage of one over the other. I know squats rule and such, but why all the "extra" leg stuff.

Ultimately I am trying to put together a superset whole body workout.

Chest/back same weight

legs?, same weight

biceps/tris tri weight double bicep weight

shoulders/ and ? (should I use a military press and upright row to get the same push-pull effect as the other superset pairs)

calves front and back

forearms front and back


Input and ideas will always be welcome.

Thanks.
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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

sinan wrote:
Does any one know the strength ratio of quads to hams during a front squat, back squat, sissy squat, leg press and deadlift (stiff and bent). Also what is the advantage of one over the other. I know squats rule and such, but why all the "extra" leg stuff.

Ultimately I am trying to put together a superset whole body workout.

Chest/back same weight
legs?, same weight
biceps/tris tri weight double bicep weight
shoulders/ and ? (should I use a military press and upright row to get the same push-pull effect as the other superset pairs)

calves front and back

forearms front and back

Input and ideas will always be welcome.

Thanks.


Let your body determine what the weights should be. It will be different for everyone.

For instance, where did you get triceps weight = 2 x biceps weight? My tri pushdowns/lying extensions weight is at or slightly higher by BB curls weight.

My Leg Extensions weight is roughly 150% of my Leg Curl weight, though many may be quite different than that.

The "opposite" of military presses would be palms-forward or parallel-grip chins or pulldowns.

You could also do incline presses with the pulldowns or perhaps even Hammer High Rows.

You could also do lateral raises supersetted with cable pec crunches.

Behind-the-Neck Presses + BN Pulldowns

Rear Raises + Pec Flyes

Flat Bench + Bentover Rows (or rowing machine)

Dips + Haney Shrugs (bar behind the back)

Forearms: My wrist curls used to be nearly 4x my RWCs. Now it's a little over 2x. That's OK if you look at the mass differences between the two sides of your forearm (or even some like Casy Viator for that matter).

Same thing with lower legs. You'll uses many times as much weight on calf/heel raises as you will on a "Tibia" machine.

As you can see, I have been thinking a lot about this notion myself lately. However, I try not to have any pre-conceived notions about what the weight ratios should be.

Scott
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sinan

simon-hecubus wrote:
sinan wrote:
Does any one know the strength ratio of quads to hams during a front squat, back squat, sissy squat, leg press and deadlift (stiff and bent). Also what is the advantage of one over the other. I know squats rule and such, but why all the "extra" leg stuff.

Ultimately I am trying to put together a superset whole body workout.

Chest/back same weight
legs?, same weight
biceps/tris tri weight double bicep weight
shoulders/ and ? (should I use a military press and upright row to get the same push-pull effect as the other superset pairs)

calves front and back

forearms front and back

Input and ideas will always be welcome.

Thanks.

Let your body determine what the weights should be. It will be different for everyone.

For instance, where did you get triceps weight = 2 x biceps weight? My tri pushdowns/lying extensions weight is at or slightly higher by BB curls weight.

My Leg Extensions weight is roughly 150% of my Leg Curl weight, though many may be quite different than that.

The "opposite" of military presses would be palms-forward or parallel-grip chins or pulldowns.

You could also do incline presses with the pulldowns or perhaps even Hammer High Rows.

You could also do lateral raises supersetted with cable pec crunches.

Behind-the-Neck Presses + BN Pulldowns

Rear Raises + Pec Flyes

Flat Bench + Bentover Rows (or rowing machine)

Dips + Haney Shrugs (bar behind the back)

Forearms: My wrist curls used to be nearly 4x my RWCs. Now it's a little over 2x. That's OK if you look at the mass differences between the two sides of your forearm (or even some like Casy Viator for that matter).

Same thing with lower legs. You'll uses many times as much weight on calf/heel raises as you will on a "Tibia" machine.

As you can see, I have been thinking a lot about this notion myself lately. However, I try not to have any pre-conceived notions about what the weight ratios should be.

Scott



Thanks Scott

Thanks for the super fast response. I have been thinking about ratios for a while also.

As far as the bicep/tricep weights I figures that the tris make up 2/3 of the arm, therefore it needs to be two times the weight.

I like the high pull/ incline combo. I wanted to try and get through the basics first. I tried before and was wrecked.


What are RWCs?
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ZEZ


What are RWCs?


Reverse Wrist Curls

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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

sinan wrote:
As far as the bicep/tricep weights I figures that the tris make up 2/3 of the arm, therefore it needs to be two times the weight.


You may see that to be true on very well devloped arms, but on average people's arms the triceps is only slightly larger (sometimes even smaller!) than the biceps.

I'm sure some of the physiologically educated folks on the forum could explain about advantageous leverage or something like that in regard to the two muscle groups.

In addtion, don't forget the brachialis, the unsung workhorse of the upper arm. It plays a big part if any curls.

Scott
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logicbdj

Ontario, CAN

The ratio difference is always based on positioning. The quads are stronger or weaker in one position to the next, and the same is true of the hamstrings. Consequently, the extent to which the hams are involved in a squat, and their ratio to that of the quads would depend on the position of the exercise, and the exercise itself.

MedX has information on what is considered 'normal' for quad and ham strength throughout the full range, and from there you can piece together the ratio from one position to the next, but based on isolation (leg ext. and leg curl) and not integration of multi-joint movements (shifting of body positioning would affect this, e.g., leaning over an extra inch in the squat would call upon more hip, glute, and ham than quad when parallel).
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DSears

Brian,

Where does MedX have that information? I've been all over their website and don't recall seeing it.

Also, do you know of a source for strength curves? I've got Brunnstroms book and it has a few in there but not all.

Thanks,
David
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logicbdj

Ontario, CAN

Contact MedX directly and they likely will fax them to you; I'll have them printed in Synergy 2006, and will include them on our site, as well (in a month or less).

You can only determine a strength curve under conditions of isolation (or in near-isolation). Aside from the muscles tested by MedX (and the corresponding testing machines), to my knowledge, no one has been able to isolate a muscle properly to determine a normal strength curve.
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DSears

Thanks Brian,

It seems like some enterprising engineering type could calculate them given the angles and moment arms.

I've seen some of your work with the load cells and I really think there is a LOT that can be learned there. I'm sure you've probably compared your own strength curves with some of the more popular machines, have you found that they are close or diverge significantly?
I read your article in which you tested one movement, I think it was bicep curl.

And while I'm on load cells, one thing I'd like to see done and would try myself if I had a load cell is to test recovery and overcompensation. For example, it would be interesting to know just how long it took to get to a state of overcompensation (defined by a strenth increase) for different protocols such as normal speed, superslow, negatives, J-Reps, etc. and if there was a difference in the magnitude of overcompensation.

Thanks,
David
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logicbdj

Ontario, CAN

Proper testing is dependent upon exact positioning, eliminating the effects of gravity and stored energy, etc. Consequently, I often only test 1-2 points while keeping the above in mind, and while trying to account for those factors, which provides me limited data. (For example, to eliminate the effects of gravity during testing of the low back, I only test when the torso is in an upright position, when gravity is not a factor).

Nonetheless, at least I realize my limitations, which few researchers consider, unfortunately. The point being, don't get too exited about using force gauges. A slight change in body positioning and torque, and you can "increase" strength significantly, which we know is not true. Therefore, true testing is a very intricate discipline.
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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

sinan wrote:
I like the high pull/ incline combo. I wanted to try and get through the basics first. I tried before and was wrecked.


The Hammer High Row is actually about half way between a pulldown and a row. To be opposite the inclines you could also go with a pulldown to the front (with parallel or front grip).

The High Pull is actually something quite different and doesn't really have an opposite movement that I can imagine.

Don't try too many compound combos in one workout, it will wipe you out. A total of 7-10 exercises with 3-5 movements being compound and the rest single-joint/isolation movements is plenty.

Scott
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logicbdj

Ontario, CAN

The MedX Normative Values for strength testing of the knee (hams and quads), neck (cervical extension and rotation), thoracic spine (rotation), and lumbar spine (extension) are now available on the IART site.

Click on the certification courses link on the far left; then click on the MedX course link. Scroll down the page until you find a grey text box that features 3 downloads, one of which is the normative values.
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