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Determine the Length of Your Workouts

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"Doing more exercise with less intensity,"
Arthur Jones believes, "has all but
destroyed the actual great value
of weight training. Something
must be done . . . and quickly."
The New Bodybuilding for
Old-School Results supplies
MUCH of that "something."

 

This is one of 93 photos of Andy McCutcheon that are used in The New High-Intensity Training to illustrate the recommended exercises.

To find out more about McCutcheon and his training, click here.

 

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BIO-FORCE

California, USA

I found a video of a friend of mine Boyer Coe doing some curls.

While I don't beleive in "timing cadence" or rep speed with a watch or metronome, I know some do.

If I had to guess, I would put these reps at 1.5 con/2 ecc, but again I don't know.

I have traine with Boyer before and this video seems to be about the speed I remember for his normal training actions.


What does your watch say?

http://www.youtube.com/...=iqC7sfnG8jg&NR
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Paul25

BIO-FORCE wrote:
I found a video of a friend of mine Boyer Coe doing some curls.

While I don't beleive in "timing cadence" or rep speed with a watch or metronome, I know some do.

If I had to guess, I would put these reps at 1.5 con/2 ecc, but again I don't know.

I have traine with Boyer before and this video seems to be about the speed I remember for his normal training actions.


What does your watch say?

http://www.youtube.com/...=iqC7sfnG8jg&NR


lol another druggie video and Aufull technique! Thought this was a drug-free forum?

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spud

My watch says none of these people can even maintain strict form on a preacher curl, let alone a standing barbell curl.
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Cherry

spud wrote:
My watch says none of these people can even maintain strict form on a preacher curl, let alone a standing barbell curl.


Right on the money! The only thing they're NOT using to curl the weight is their biceps. And Bio-force thinks this is great haha
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johyn

hahahaah.. if coe was bouncing and bending any more during his reps then he would have been dancing. ha ha . thanks for this funny joke video. no strict form here.
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Yes

I think you need to redefine bad form...

http://www.youtube.com/...related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/...related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/...related&search=
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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

Sorry, John, but I have to echo the others. Boyer was initiating the curls with his lower back from the first rep. That bar was about 100-103 lbs --- surely he could manage better form than that.

I have to say that Lenda's form looked pretty good, though her set was of low intensity.
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rtestes

Mississippi, USA

Yes, 1.5/1.5 count and the weights weren't that heavy either. Yet Boyer was showing just about as good a form as I ever seen in videos. I would love to see someone hold form with good weights for a 4/4 rep in the 8-12 rep range. Heck, you don't even have to run between sets, take a 30-60 sec break.

Lets see some real videos from the past or present using HIT form. Dr. Darden, do you have any? Even from the old school?

With sites like youtube, it is possible to share examples from past and present before they are lost for all time.
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spud

Yes wrote:
I think you need to redefine bad form...

http://www.youtube.com/...related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/...related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/...related&search=


I still don't think that Boyer's, Shaun's or Lenda's form was particularly good. I don't care what other people think.

If you can see someones body swaying then their form could be tighter. I don't believe that you need to loosen your form in order to progress to a "higher level" of training.

The 3 videos of the guy in the red top aren't even on the scale they're so bad. It must be someones idea of a sick joke.
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waynegr

Switzerland

Hey John, I have thrown away my stopwatch, well not really I still count my rest periods for the 5 minutes in-between sets, and I think this is important. But wow these faster controlled reps are far better for size and strength, and a far for satisfying way to train.

I was watching Boyer in the Walking tall film, and Boyer said something like; I stay in shape all year around, does this mean he is one of the these guys that is actually that big without steroids, or would he take them for just competitions and photos shots, and then out of the spotlight he would layoff them and lose ?some? of the mass, not sure if your talking to me John, but Boyer seems a great guy when he was specking, he did not seem the type who would endanger his life with to many steroids.

It?s funny how the some of people here that most properly have half the mass of the people on the video, claim there people are doing it wrong, a few years ago I might have said the same about some similar videos, but not this one, as the examples of curls by all three people were good, and remembers these are for the cameras and ?if? you use a ?heavy? weight, there is no way in the World you can use perfect form, and there is no need to use perfect form, good form yes, I think that is where a lot of people go wrong, (and remember I love isolating) as to use heaver and heaver weights you ?need? to break form a bit, as the muscle in question is still doing most of the work, you just need the help of the stabilises. Think John (bio-force) will or might explain this better. it?s like collage student telling Albert Einstein he has The Meaning of Relativity all wrong, I mean look at the mass on these people, your talking about people at the very top of the Bodybuilding World, Boyer Coe, Shawn Ray and Lenda Murray.

I counted Boyer at an average of about 1/3 and Ray at an average of 1/1 to 1/2, and Lenda Murray at about 1/1.

Wayne
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Yes

spud wrote:
Yes wrote:
I think you need to redefine bad form...

http://www.youtube.com/...related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/...related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/...related&search=

I still don't think that Boyer's, Shaun's or Lenda's form was particularly good. I don't care what other people think.

If you can see someones body swaying then their form could be tighter. I don't believe that you need to loosen your form in order to progress to a "higher level" of training.

The 3 videos of the guy in the red top aren't even on the scale they're so bad. It must be someones idea of a sick joke.


Their form could be better, but I dont think it was THAT bad.

The guy in the red top is serious. He even claims that his back injury has gotten better when training like this. Right now I think hes preparing for his first BB-competition.

Not that I would ever train like that. :-)

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Paul25

Quote Wayne,

Hey John, I have thrown away my stopwatch, well not really I still count my rest periods for the 5 minutes in-between sets, and I think this is important. But wow these faster controlled reps are far better for size and strength, and a far for satisfying way to train.

Wow totally at odds with your comments Wayne! Do you like Drugs then?
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Law&Order

BIO-FORCE wrote:

What does your watch say?


Rolex

---------------

*Note that when you cheat, the cheating must not come from spinal flexion and extension, but from a swinging motion of the arms and the trunk, as well as from a partial squatting thrust of the knees (if the load is very heavy).

While cheating is to be discouraged as a regular way of training for novices, it should not be discouraged because of any belief that it is intrinsically unsafe, but because it is more advanced technique to help during certain stages of a given movement.

Cheating can also allow one to load muscles in a range which may be neglected if one relies solely on strict movement which forces one to use a lighter load. Thus, technically correct ?cheating? can be an asset to one?s training repertoire. Conversely, unskilled or premature use of cheating can pose a real threat to safety and progress.*


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kurtvf

I think beneficial cheating was invented by Joe Weider and is one of the "Weider principles", right up there with the "Weider Pre-exhaust " Principle.
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waynegr

Switzerland

Law&Order wrote:
BIO-FORCE wrote:

What does your watch say?

Rolex

---------------

*Note that when you cheat, the cheating must not come from spinal flexion and extension, but from a swinging motion of the arms and the trunk, as well as from a partial squatting thrust of the knees (if the load is very heavy).

While cheating is to be discouraged as a regular way of training for novices, it should not be discouraged because of any belief that it is intrinsically unsafe, but because it is more advanced technique to help during certain stages of a given movement.

Cheating can also allow one to load muscles in a range which may be neglected if one relies solely on strict movement which forces one to use a lighter load. Thus, technically correct ?cheating? can be an asset to one?s training repertoire. Conversely, unskilled or premature use of cheating can pose a real threat to safety and progress.*




Great popst L & O

Wayne

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Cherry

what perfect form using their 'stabilizer' muscles just like nature intended. right marc? right bio-force? ;) rofl
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BSchank

New Jersey, USA

"Form is always very important in this exercise, as in all exercises."

He states this in the video, but they're all jerking to get the weight up. Why say that and then do the opposite?
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Growl

Let's not act like Bio-Force is from another planet when he talks about faster rep speeds. He's probably closer to "old school" HIT than most here are - with his sets and his rep cadence.
AJ, Nautilus Bulletin #2, Chapter 37:
"It is not, however, necessary - nor desirable - to use an extremely slow speed of movement during the first few reps of a set; if, for example, you could curl a barbell in one-third of a second, then it is not necessary to restrict your speed to a point where the first rep takes two or three seconds - instead, perform the movement at a speed where perhaps one second is required for the complete "upwards" movement.
Nor is it necessary to attempt to measure the time required; you can, rather easily, "feel" the required speed - you will almost always know if you are actually moving as fast as possible, or not doing so."

Jeff
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Growl

I see no advantage to loose form from the start and neither did AJ.

After cautioning about proper form, AJ had this to say in NB2, chapter 37: "But the above is not meant to imply that "cheating" methods should never be used - on the contrary, they; should be used, they should be used in almost every set, and in every exercise where they can be used to an advantage; but they should be used only at the end of a set, only when several repetitions have been performed in perfect form, only when it becomes absolutely necessary to cheat in order to continue, and you should cheat only to the degree necessary, cheat to make continued movement possible, not to make it easy."

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marcrph

Portugal

Cherry wrote:
what perfect form using their 'stabilizer' muscles just like nature intended. right marc? right bio-force? ;) rofl



Cherry,

Please read this part of an article from Richard Winett, including the part about AJ.


Poor Examples of High Intensity Training

In his training tapes, Dorian Yates uses a great deal of weight on a Nautilus plate loaded pullover machine with about a 1,2 rep cadence and heaving the resistance. This is supposed to be a true exemplar of high intensity training because of the amount of resistance, struggling, and screaming.

However, this style is not the best way to target the upper back and therefore is not a very good exemplar of high intensity training.

Rather, the machine pullover has probably the largest range of motion of any resistance training exercise, and accordingly, something in the order of a 10,5 or perhaps even a 12,6 cadence seems warranted. With this cadence and a great deal of control, much less resistance will be used but the set can be a good example of a high intensity stimulus.

I have a great deal of respect for Dorian Yates and these comments should be not construed in a negative way. I can only assume he would have been even greater employing a safer and even higher intensity approach.

A far more horrifying example of inappropriate high intensity training sadly and ironically is found on an early Nautilus training tape where Arthur Jones is training a top bodybuilder of that day.

A lot of force is involved and a lot of resistance is used on every machine but here the movement arms are thrown and sometimes the weight stack is bounced to get even more momentum going.

By way of contrast, Dorian Yates's training looked relatively slow and controlled.

Watching this tape made me realize that perhaps the person given the most credit for high intensity training theory - and to whom we all owe a great deal - didn't really fully appreciate the essence of his own theory!

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marcrph

Portugal

Use of the stabilizing muscles indicates some form of balancing of the weight in a 3 dimensional plane is occuring. The use of "cheating" methods is of little help when this occurs.

Try NA stiff legged deadlifts, as one lifts the weight (DB/barbell) with both legs and lowers with 1 leg.
or, try NA trap bar deadlifts, as one lifts with both legs and lowers with 1 leg. You'll soon feel the need for stabilizing muscles, as the strain on the hams, and quads with these respective lifts will prove.
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shlevon

A lot of odd, disrespectful replies in this thread. Bio-force never even endorsed the form, he just asked about the cadence.

Good grief.
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BIO-FORCE

California, USA

shlevon wrote:
A lot of odd, disrespectful replies in this thread. Bio-force never even endorsed the form, he just asked about the cadence.

Good grief.


You are correct, I said nothing about the form, but the responses were interesting.

I see Boyer, Mike and Dorian's names trotted about as examples of HIT training, and thought the video interesting.

It is certainly amusing to watch the "pack" pile on.

While I have trained with, or along side all the above indiviuals, I find it interesting that some support them and others feel they are an example of bad form.

Very few mentions of "rep speed" which is what I asked about.

I also find it interesting that 14" and 16" arms, feel that they somehow know how to train, because they have an internet connection, and use the excuse of Drugs, to describe anyone who has better results than themselves (who of course are "Hard Gainers")

So if Boyer (who worked with Arthur for a long while)is not an example of good (as in realistic, not theoretical) training, and Dorian isn't, then who is?

It becomes a little strange when the trainees, become more fanatical about slowing rep speed, than the basis for the system which is intensity.

I would wager that the couple of "form critics" who feign unassailable perfection in their rep cadences and form have undewhelming development and little or no strength to show for their centric convictions.

I could be wrong.



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BIO-FORCE

California, USA

Cherry wrote:
spud wrote:
My watch says none of these people can even maintain strict form on a preacher curl, let alone a standing barbell curl.

Right on the money! The only thing they're NOT using to curl the weight is their biceps. And Bio-force thinks this is great haha



Hi Cherry,

I didn't endorse or criticize the form, I ask about rep speed.

Can we safely assume from your comments that even Lenda has arms bigger than yours?
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BIO-FORCE

California, USA

Growl wrote:
Let's not act like Bio-Force is from another planet when he talks about faster rep speeds. He's probably closer to "old school" HIT than most here are - with his sets and his rep cadence.
AJ, Nautilus Bulletin #2, Chapter 37:
"It is not, however, necessary - nor desirable - to use an extremely slow speed of movement during the first few reps of a set; if, for example, you could curl a barbell in one-third of a second, then it is not necessary to restrict your speed to a point where the first rep takes two or three seconds - instead, perform the movement at a speed where perhaps one second is required for the complete "upwards" movement.
Nor is it necessary to attempt to measure the time required; you can, rather easily, "feel" the required speed - you will almost always know if you are actually moving as fast as possible, or not doing so."

Jeff


Thanks Jeff,

That looks like something I wrote. Hard to beleive some of these other comments "mutated" from that begining.

Especially the "feel" part.

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