"Doing more exercise with less intensity,"
Arthur Jones believes, "has all but
destroyed the actual great value
of weight training. Something
must be done . . . and quickly."
The New Bodybuilding for
Old-School Results supplies
MUCH of that "something."
This is one of 93 photos of Andy McCutcheon that are used in The New High-Intensity Training to illustrate the recommended exercises.
To find out more about McCutcheon and his training, click here.
HIT wrote:
Ellington Darden wrote:
HIT wrote:
I wasn't impressed by the intensity, maybe is just not me who doesnt see that Drew trains at 100% intensity.
But I still wonder what Ell thinks!
Drew did a good job. But I believe he can improve his intensity, and his form, on each exercise.
Ellington
That was my impression also...
If you can identify Drew's form and intensity to be lacking could you provide specific fixes for him to improve.
Please advise on exaclty what Drew was doing wrong, and what he should be doing better.
Please advise on exaclty what Drew was doing wrong, and what he should be doing better.
I know what I was doing wrong, it's just things I need to work on.
I should have kept my face completely relaxed throughout the workout. No tensing up, grimacing, etc.
My turnarounds could have been smoother.
I should have kept my torso more stable during a few exercises, particularly the rowing torso and chest fly, and I should have kept my head still and not moved my neck on some things.
My form wasn't at it's best, but I was focusing more on just working as hard as possible. Not an excuse, just an explanation.
As for the intensity, you can't judge it by watching someone very well, and the better a person's form is, the more difficult it is for most to tell whether they're working hard.
Most people assume that hard work has to be accompanied by a variety of things that should actually be avoided during exercise, such as grunting, groaning, yelling and screaming, making faces, thrashing around in the equipment, breath-holding and turning various shades of red and purple, etc.
The better a person's form is, the harder it is to tell just how hard they're really working, because if they're maintaining strict form the only differences you should see between the first and the last rep are the speed (the last will be slower due to fatigue) and heavier breathing if it's an exercise involving a large amount of muscle.
saseme wrote:
HIT wrote:
Ellington Darden wrote:
HIT wrote:
I wasn't impressed by the intensity, maybe is just not me who doesnt see that Drew trains at 100% intensity.
But I still wonder what Ell thinks!
Drew did a good job. But I believe he can improve his intensity, and his form, on each exercise.
Ellington
That was my impression also...
If you can identify Drew's form and intensity to be lacking could you provide specific fixes for him to improve.
Please advise on exaclty what Drew was doing wrong, and what he should be doing better.
I'm curious of this as well. If concentric failure after forced reps on most exercises isn't enough intensity, than throw out most of what was indicated in "The New HIT," especially the barbell curl example.
2. The leg extention and then the leg press; if we agree that as a compound exercise the leg press is more of a mass builder than the leg extention, wouldn't it be more productive to do the leg press first and then do the extentions?
Drew was using the technique known as "pre-exhaust" on his leg and chest exercises.
If you've never tried them then you dont know what fun you're missing ;-)
BloodandGuts,
I'm familiar with the technique; I was asking about it in the context of the video - training intensity.
I've used pre-exhaustion in my training,
but I've always put the compound movement first - say I'm doing flys and military or bench presses; I can do a heavy set of presses and then a heavy set of flies, but not the other way around. This prompted my questions -
let me give you some analogies to better explain what I was asking:
Hypothetically, lets say you can squat 405x20 fresh. You go to the gym and pre-exhaust with leg extensions first right before doing squats. As a result, you can then barely squat 315x10. Since leg extensions aren't a mass builder like squats or leg presses, wouldn't it make more sense to have done the pre-exhaust the other way around (squats first, leg extensions second)?
Put another way, if you can squat 405x20 and you do it, do you think it is going to have a better effect on your physique than if you put that power movement second and so can only squat 315x10?
My other question was if waiting a few minutes between doing the exercises in the lower body pre-exhaust and the upper body exercises, would have allowed heavier weights/more reps with the upper body exercises.
Tomislav wrote:
BloodandGuts,
I'm familiar with the technique; I was asking about it in the context of the video - training intensity.
I've used pre-exhaustion in my training,
but I've always put the compound movement first - say I'm doing flys and military or bench presses; I can do a heavy set of presses and then a heavy set of flies, but not the other way around. This prompted my questions -
let me give you some analogies to better explain what I was asking:
Hypothetically, lets say you can squat 405x20 fresh. You go to the gym and pre-exhaust with leg extensions first right before doing squats. As a result, you can then barely squat 315x10. Since leg extensions aren't a mass builder like squats or leg presses, wouldn't it make more sense to have done the pre-exhaust the other way around (squats first, leg extensions second)?
Put another way, if you can squat 405x20 and you do it, do you think it is going to have a better effect on your physique than if you put that power movement second and so can only squat 315x10?
My other question was if waiting a few minutes between doing the exercises in the lower body pre-exhaust and the upper body exercises, would have allowed heavier weights/more reps with the upper body exercises.
sorry hope I didnt offend by assuming you just didnt know what it was.
I think one needs to get rid of the notion that some exercises are mass builders and others arent. they all will build mass if you train hard, eat enough and rest well. Squats just activate more muscles than extensions thereby stimulating more overall gains. msucles will grow if they're worked hard enough, weather its only one or many at a time.
to answer your question, using the PE technique is a way to dig deeper in the target muscle than you could by only doing a compound movement alone. Doing it the way you described really doesnt utilize the advantages this technique can offer while training certain bodyparts.
here's why:
as you know, when you do squats or leg presses, the large front thigh muscles are not the only ones involved. there are numerous other muscles, really the entire lower body and in the case of squats much of the upper body as well. in many cases those smaller muscles will tire much sooner than the larger muscles causing failure to be reached without having fully taxed them. the PE technique is designed to turn that around so that by doing an isolation movement like leg extensions, which work only the front thigh muscles, and then performing the compound movement, the smaller muscles actually have a temporary strength adavantage over the already fatigued muscles of the front thigh which means that they are not a liability anymore but an asset in that now you can use them to push past a level you would normally not have been able to reach, depite the fact that you are using less weight than you would if you had done it alone.
to me its most apparent when training chest. For me, the shoulders and tris can often be a limiting factor in that area but using pre-exhaust with either flys or pec deck and moving onto presses (just as Drew did) can be a great way to overcome that.
as for doing sets with little to no rest between them, remember, more weight is not the only way to increase intensity.
according to Mike Mentzer (and I'm sure Darden and Jones would concur), you can increase your training intensity by:
increasing the weight
decreasing rest times
training to muscular failure
Drew trained with very high intensity in his video because not only did he train to failure and use pre-exhaust, forced reps and negatives but he did all his sets in non-stop fashion.
You're right, I have the notion that some exercises are better mass builders in relation to others.
You would seem to agree with me in regards to squats/leg presses vrs leg extentions ("...squats stimulate more overall gains"), but I'm perplexed that in the same sentence you suggest I should get rid of this notion. Can you tell me why?
You also mentioned that in your own experience doing flys before presses was helpful but that you had to use a lot less weight on the press.
Why is it bad to do it the other way around? It might still be helpfull, particularly in that you could then do heavy presses again.
You also mentioned that in adition to increasing the weight, you can also increase the intensity by training to failure and decreasing rest times - aren't these both techniques to build more muscle (increase the weight)?
I've never done pre-exhaust for legs, but I think if I tried it I would want to do the extensions afterwards; curious if anyone has tried this or would reccomend doing heavy squats after leg extensions?
BloodandGuts wrote:
Tomislav wrote:
BloodandGuts,
I'm familiar with the technique; I was asking about it in the context of the video - training intensity.
I've used pre-exhaustion in my training,
but I've always put the compound movement first - say I'm doing flys and military or bench presses; I can do a heavy set of presses and then a heavy set of flies, but not the other way around. This prompted my questions -
let me give you some analogies to better explain what I was asking:
Hypothetically, lets say you can squat 405x20 fresh. You go to the gym and pre-exhaust with leg extensions first right before doing squats. As a result, you can then barely squat 315x10. Since leg extensions aren't a mass builder like squats or leg presses, wouldn't it make more sense to have done the pre-exhaust the other way around (squats first, leg extensions second)?
Put another way, if you can squat 405x20 and you do it, do you think it is going to have a better effect on your physique than if you put that power movement second and so can only squat 315x10?
My other question was if waiting a few minutes between doing the exercises in the lower body pre-exhaust and the upper body exercises, would have allowed heavier weights/more reps with the upper body exercises.
sorry hope I didnt offend by assuming you just didnt know what it was.
I think one needs to get rid of the notion that some exercises are mass builders and others arent. they all will build mass if you train hard, eat enough and rest well. Squats just activate more muscles than extensions thereby stimulating more overall gains. msucles will grow if they're worked hard enough, weather its only one or many at a time.
to answer your question, using the PE technique is a way to dig deeper in the target muscle than you could by only doing a compound movement alone. Doing it the way you described really doesnt utilize the advantages this technique can offer while training certain bodyparts.
here's why:
as you know, when you do squats or leg presses, the large front thigh muscles are not the only ones involved. there are numerous other muscles, really the entire lower body and in the case of squats much of the upper body as well. in many cases those smaller muscles will tire much sooner than the larger muscles causing failure to be reached without having fully taxed them. the PE technique is designed to turn that around so that by doing an isolation movement like leg extensions, which work only the front thigh muscles, and then performing the compound movement, the smaller muscles actually have a temporary strength adavantage over the already fatigued muscles of the front thigh which means that they are not a liability anymore but an asset in that now you can use them to push past a level you would normally not have been able to reach, depite the fact that you are using less weight than you would if you had done it alone.
to me its most apparent when training chest. For me, the shoulders and tris can often be a limiting factor in that area but using pre-exhaust with either flys or pec deck and moving onto presses (just as Drew did) can be a great way to overcome that.
as for doing sets with little to no rest between them, remember, more weight is not the only way to increase intensity.
according to Mike Mentzer (and I'm sure Darden and Jones would concur), you can increase your training intensity by:
increasing the weight
decreasing rest times
training to muscular failure
Drew trained with very high intensity in his video because not only did he train to failure and use pre-exhaust, forced reps and negatives but he did all his sets in non-stop fashion.
regards,
B&G
well said, B&G,
in other words, Tomislav, you are actually not using pre-exhaust properly. and also, as AJ states below, the amount of weight is not necessarily the critical issue.
from arthur jones
For example; in the squat, a point of failure is usually reached when the lower-back muscles fail - and this normally happens long before the much larger and far stronger frontal thigh muscles have been worked as hard as they should be for the production of best-possible results.
But - by "pre-exhausting" the frontal thigh muscles - this problem can be solved; this can best be done in the following manner. First, perform one set of about twenty to thirty repetitions of leg presses - but continue until it is literally impossible to move the weight in any position, regardless of the number of repetitions that are momentarily required. Second, INSTANTLY follow the leg presses with a set of about twenty thigh extensions - with no rest at all between the leg presses and thigh extensions, and again continuing the set to a point where additional movement is utterly impossible. Third, THEN DO YOUR SQUATS - INSTANTLY, with no rest at all following the thigh extensions, not even so much as two seconds of rest.
You will find that very little weight is required for the squats - probably only half (or even less than halt) of the normal amount of weight that you use for squatting; in many cases, as little as 135 pounds will be all that is required for a man that usually squats with well over 300 pounds for 15 or 20 repetitions.
But regardless of the fact that the weight being used is actually very light, when you do reach a point of failure in your squats it won't be because your lower back failed before your thighs were properly worked; your thighs will be worked far harder than they ever were before - and when you fail, it will be because your thighs are exhausted.
In effect, you have removed the "weak link" of lower-back involvement in the squats; by pre-exhausting the frontal thigh muscles before squatting.
You are serious? You say I'm not utilizing pre-exhaust correctly because I'm doing the mass building exercise first, but then go on to explain how I could apply it effectively in conjunction with heavy 20 rep squats by quoting Jones whom you think is saying something quite different than what you've quoted; He actually describes doing it the way I thought would make sense - by doing the heavy squats first:
1. "First perform 20-30 reps of leg presses to failure" ie heavy machine squats
2. Then do the leg extensions
3. Do more squats using free weight
It would seem that Jones also thought it was more effective to do the mass building exercise before the isolation exercise, or do you seriously think he may have had another reason for doing the heavy 20 rep machine squats first?
Tomislav-
sorry i misunderstood you, i thought you implied that leg extensions wouldnt build any mass at all, i.e were a "shaping" or "definition" movement like so many people tout in Flex and other Weider mags.
You are serious? You say I'm not utilizing pre-exhaust correctly because I'm doing the mass building exercise first, but then go on to explain how I could apply it effectively in conjunction with heavy 20 rep squats by quoting Jones whom you think is saying something quite different than what you've quoted; He actually describes doing it the way I thought would make sense - by doing the heavy squats first:
1. "First perform 20-30 reps of leg presses to failure" ie heavy machine squats
2. Then do the leg extensions
3. Do more squats using free weight
It would seem that Jones also thought it was more effective to do the mass building exercise before the isolation exercise, or do you seriously think he may have had another reason for doing the heavy 20 rep machine squats first?
I've used pre-exhaustion in my training,
but I've always put the compound movement first - say I'm doing flys and military or bench presses; I can do a heavy set of presses and then a heavy set of flies, but not the other way around.
1. leg presses are not squats, and the key to what jones was saying was the extensions.
2. regarding above, what you are describing is not preexhaustion, it's just doing two sets of different exercises for the chest.
doing leg presses, leg extensions and then squats is an example of "double pre-exhaust" and is the next step up the ladder of intensity regarding that technique.
the logic behind the double pre-exhaust technique is easy to see:
the leg presses hit all the major muscles of the legs but use much less hip and lower back compared to squats.
the leg extensions use nothing but front thighs so now the other muscles used during the presses are resting.
finally, with your front thighs already screaming for mercy, the squats utilize all the previously used muscles plus add in a huge dose of hip and lower back involvement as well, allowing one to push their thighs to an unbelievable level of fatigue.
yes you have to use less weight on the squats, about 50% less, which is why one should use the technique sparingly for short periods and then return to regular straight set training with their regular poundages.
pre-exhaust techniques are incredibly taxing on the muscles, cardio systems and recovery ability and can lead to overtraining if done too often, but they are a great tool to use to bust through a plateau or for short-term specialization routines.
A leg press is indeed a machine squat; it is a a compound movement similar to a freeweight squat. Arguably, this compound movement a greater mass builder than the squat from the perspective that it involves less lower back and so enables you to place a greater load on the major muscles of the legs.
BloodandGuts has accurately described it:
"The leg presses hit all the major muscles of the legs but use much less hip and lower back compared to squats."
You quoted Jones as saying "do the heavy 20 rep leg presses first", so:
1. How are leg extentions the key??
2. Do you have an example of a single pre-exhaust where Jones suggests doing leg extensions and then the heavy 20 rep squats or leg presses?
3. Why are presses and then flys (done immediately) NOT pre-exhaustion? I'm guessing it can't be just because I didn't do the isolation movement first.
Tomislav wrote:
1. How are leg extentions the key??
2. Do you have an example of a single pre-exhaust where Jones suggests doing leg extensions and then the heavy 20 rep squats or leg presses?
3. Why are presses and then flys (done immediately) NOT pre-exhaustion? I'm guessing it can't be just because I didn't do the isolation movement first.
I dont know any of Jones' routines but MIke Mentzer frequently suggested Leg extensions as the first exercise in a pre-exhaust cycle.
it seems you're having a hard time understanding the basic concept of the technique.
the isolation movement comes first because it works the target muscle and ONLY the target muscle, therefore the weak link muscles in the compound movement (i.e. shoulders and tris for chest, bi's for back, etc.) will have a temporary strength advantage over the usually stronger target muscles, which enables them to actually assist the target muscle to reach true failure instead of preventing it.
to do the compound movement first defeats the whole concept of the technique. Not that it's useless but it wont have the same effect as proper pre-exhaust training will.
the effectiveness of this technique can be felt in ONE workout. Try doing a set of pec deck flys to failure (8-12 reps) and then immediately do a set of bench presses, DB presses or dips to failure (about 3-5 reps) and see how much harder you feel your shoulders and especially your tris working.
the double pre-exhuast technique merely expands on this concept by placing the isolation movement in the middle of a tri-set so that the assistance muscles get a rest while the target muscles continue to get hammered. Dr Darden has several different Double pre-exhaust cycles in his various specialization routines and I'm sure anyone here who's tried them will agree they are brutal beyond belief and certainly not for the faint of heart, lol!
I think you gave a very clear description of pre-exhaustion, but it's less clear why you think that "doing the compound movement first defeats the whole concept of the pre-exhaustion technique."
Jones put the compound movement first in the double pre-exhaust that was quoted to me; that seems to be the main difference, not that the leg extensions are in the middle. So, the guy who's squatting (or leg pressing) well over 300 pounds for 20 reps can do so with this model; in the other model he does the isolation exercise first and then squats with the bar.
I haven't tried Dr Dardens double pre-exhaust cycles, but in reading Bodybuilding for Old School Results (fantastic inspiring book with great pictures! thanks Dr Darden) I see a pre-exhaust pressing routine that I do a very similar variation of, and the compound movement is done first.
Also, you alluded to Mentzers pre-exhaust routines; don't they have you doing a heavy squat or leg press somewhere in the workout before the leg extensions? Please show me as with the Jones example, perhaps the routine is different than you recollect.
I think you gave a very clear description of pre-exhaustion, but it's less clear why you think that "doing the compound movement first defeats the whole concept of the pre-exhaustion technique."
Jones put the compound movement first in the double pre-exhaust that was quoted to me; that seems to be the main difference, not that the leg extensions are in the middle. So, the guy who's squatting (or leg pressing) well over 300 pounds for 20 reps can do so with this model; in the other model he does the isolation exercise first and then squats with the bar.
I haven't tried Dr Dardens double pre-exhaust cycles, but in reading Bodybuilding for Old School Results (fantastic inspiring book with great pictures! thanks Dr Darden) I see a pre-exhaust pressing routine that I do a very similar variation of, and the compound movement is done first.
Also, you alluded to Mentzers pre-exhaust routines; don't they have you doing a heavy squat or leg press somewhere in the workout before the leg extensions? Please show me as with the Jones example, perhaps the routine is different than you recollect.
I would like to see Dr Darden's pre exhaust routine that HE calls a pre-exhaust routine, not that YOU call pre-exhaust, where the compound comes first. if you put pre-exhaust in your internet search bar you will find out what it means, instead of insisting that the compound comes first.
Pre-exhaust commonly involves performing a single joint movement for a muscle group prior to a multi-joint movement involving the same muscle group, for the purpose of providing more and harder work for the target muscle group while working around the weak links in the multi-joint movement.
When the multi-joint exercise is performed first it is usually considered "reverse" pre-exhaust.
There are many ways to go about it, depending on what one wishes to accomplish.
Drew Baye wrote:
Pre-exhaust commonly involves performing a single joint movement for a muscle group prior to a multi-joint movement involving the same muscle group, for the purpose of providing more and harder work for the target muscle group while working around the weak links in the multi-joint movement.
When the multi-joint exercise is performed first it is usually considered "reverse" pre-exhaust.
There are many ways to go about it, depending on what one wishes to accomplish.
I suppose one can do any exercises in any order and accomplish any number of different things, but the reason that the SJ is done first is that it works better.
I have done pre-ex and reverse pre-ex and regular pre-ex as commonly defined is vastly superior for any goal that I can think of. And double pre ex is just confusing the issue here, although B&G explained the goal that AJ had in mind there very well.
I have done pre-ex and reverse pre-ex and regular pre-ex as commonly defined is vastly superior for any goal that I can think of. And double pre ex is just confusing the issue here, although B&G explained the goal that AJ had in mind there very well.
If you are more concerned with the overall effect of the compound exercise, and the ability to work the other muscles involved with a heavier weight, rather than just focusing on the muscles being targeted by the single joint exercise, then it would make sense to do the compound first.
Like most other things, the best way to go about it depends on what one is trying to accomplish.
Drew Baye wrote:
Pre-exhaust commonly involves performing a single joint movement for a muscle group prior to a multi-joint movement involving the same muscle group, for the purpose of providing more and harder work for the target muscle group while working around the weak links in the multi-joint movement.
When the multi-joint exercise is performed first it is usually considered "reverse" pre-exhaust.
There are many ways to go about it, depending on what one wishes to accomplish.
Drew,
I think pre-exhaustion is just working the target muscle prior to working the target muscle; when you hit it again right away it's pre-exhausted.
I thought you're goal in the video was to build muscle.
I'm curious why you did not do the leg press first since it allows you to work the muscles harder (stimulates more hypertrophy).
I'm also curious about the actual number of leg exercises in your pre-exhaust; I think I saw you doing 4:
1. Leg extensions to failure
2. Negative rep leg extensions
3. Leg presses to failure
4. Forced rep leg presses
I think it may be possible for many lifters to work harder just by doing #3 (or 3 and 4), because it's a mass builder and it's not as productive when you're exhausted.
gorlando,
You asked: "I would like to see Dr Darden's pre exhaust routine that HE calls a pre-exhaust routine, not that YOU call pre-exhaust, where the compound comes first."
Turn to pages 57 for the press routine. There is also another pre-exhaust routine on page 69.
HIT wrote:
I wasn't impressed by the intensity, maybe is just not me who doesnt see that Drew trains at 100% intensity.
And how exactly do you judge intensity? What were you expecting? Grunting, screaming, and slamming the weights? Sloppy form and histrionics doesn't equal intensity.
If I had been using better form, it probably would have looked even less intense, although it would arguably have been more intense. In fact, the better a person's form, the harder it is to tell how hard they're working since if very good form is being used, except for a reduction in speed the last rep should look nearly identical to the first.
The most interesting thing that has come out of this is that I'm finding many people don't have enough of an understanding of the subject to be able to really judge what is happening in the video, and very little idea of what proper, or even "good" form is.
I'm curious why you did not do the leg press first since it allows you to work the muscles harder (stimulates more hypertrophy).
The Nautilus Nitro leg press doesn't have a heavy enough weight stack to stay within my desired rep range unless I use it one leg at a time.
Over the past few weeks I've tried moving the seat further forward, and am still able to do more reps than I care to with the full stack. We either need to get more add-on plates or I have to start doing it one leg at a time.
