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seanoz

Hey guys,

I have a few clients that are ectomorphs and are typical hardgainers, and they want to know what the best supplements are for gaining.

I am also interested in your experiences with Nanogreens and phytonutrients.

I have been looking at the theories of 'alkalising' and noticed they also are insistant on the use of these kinds of products.

What I found interesting though was one of these sites selling water alkalisers suggested that 'stocky, muscular, and large boned' individuals do not need an alkaliser and may actually perform better with acid foods, (no wonder I love french fries), the questions were typical of alpha males with mesomorphic builds.

Is this a suggestion that ecto and some endomorphs are 'acidic' and may need to move into alkalinity?

Is this also why we see so many meso and high performance athletes so addicted to and so passionate about natural and alkalising foods?

Any ideas on this?

Sean.
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Michael Petrella

Ontario, CAN

you will know when you are taking Nano_greens. I am convinced it is a good product.

The other product I recommened is Disacted Liver. Get the stuff through Gironda nutrition. It is cold processed so the nutriets and still intact for absorbtion.

However for the most part with supplements, save your money. Spending the money on raw eggs, and if you can get your hands on it, raw cream, milk and butter is the greatest thing I have taken into my body to progress my training results.

Michael
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Yes

seanoz wrote:
Hey guys,

I have a few clients that are ectomorphs and are typical hardgainers, and they want to know what the best supplements are for gaining.

You should tell them to stop looking for an easy way and start with the hard work. If they are ectomorphs and "hardgainers", they need to learn how to eat.
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jn6047

Yes wrote:
seanoz wrote:
Hey guys,

I have a few clients that are ectomorphs and are typical hardgainers, and they want to know what the best supplements are for gaining.

You should tell them to stop looking for an easy way and start with the hard work. If they are ectomorphs and "hardgainers", they need to learn how to eat.




Couldn't have said it better myself. I was one of those guys too, a few years ago. Untill I learned that if you want to be muscular like a horse or gorilla, you have to eat like a horse or gorilla.

jn6047
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Yes

jn6047 wrote:
Yes wrote:
seanoz wrote:
Hey guys,

I have a few clients that are ectomorphs and are typical hardgainers, and they want to know what the best supplements are for gaining.

You should tell them to stop looking for an easy way and start with the hard work. If they are ectomorphs and "hardgainers", they need to learn how to eat.




Couldn't have said it better myself. I was one of those guys too, a few years ago. Untill I learned that if you want to be muscular like a horse or gorilla, you have to eat like a horse or gorilla.

jn6047

For me personally though, that would make me fat as a whale. But then i'm also more of an endomorph...

When it comes to naturally thin guys i have seen many examples of incredible lean mass gains once they have learned to eat properly. There is also research that shows that people who have never been fat can make good lean mass gains from eating alone. With proper exercise there should be some amazing potential(given otherwise decent genetic potential, of course).

That's why I put "hardgainers" in quotation marks. I think a lot of naturally thin guys are in fact easy gainers. They just need to take the proper steps to increase their apetite(which means gradually increasing their food intake).
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Ciccio

jn6047 wrote:
Couldn't have said it better myself. I was one of those guys too, a few years ago. Untill I learned that if you want to be muscular like a horse or gorilla, you have to eat like a horse or gorilla.

jn6047


So, you eat grass and tree leaves and stuff like this?

Franco

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logicbdj

Ontario, CAN

Nutrient dense foods are the way to go, including nuts, lean meats... and, if necessary... a quality protein or weight gain powder to help get that person over the edge (but do watch body fat levels since they can creep up without much notice).

NanoGreens 10 is the best product I have used and something we endorse through our site (here is a direct link: mybiopharmacy.com/a/1168/). Most people 'feel' a difference within a few weeks of taking it... others are not so sure until they go off the product and then they feel it.

This product has a great effect on the immune system and recovery, and ha been through several studies in regard to its absorption rate, the ability to reduce blood pressure, lowers triglycerides in plasma, increases total antioxidant capacity in plasma, increases detox antioxidant enzymes (S.O.D.) in the liver... and recently has been accepted by the IOC.

The person who used to own Greens+ sold that company and started up this one. The next best thing to NanoGreens 10 is GreensFirst, which produce has only half the amount of antioxidants as NanoGreens, less absorption ability, and at about the same cost per serving.

You can't buy NanoGreens 10 in health food stores... only through health care professionals (e.g., and that site listed above).
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seanoz


You should tell them to stop looking for an easy way and start with the hard work. If they are ectomorphs and "hardgainers", they need to learn how to eat.


Ohh don't worry, they are getting the hard work done, I run a solid HIT routine on all my clients be they 70 or 17, 10-12 exercises and always to a solid failure.

In the beginning with their builds I cycle longer TUL with a much shorter until form is found, (some tend to be shaky when inroading deeply-quickly) with some intensity extenders.


Couldn't have said it better myself. I was one of those guys too, a few years ago. Untill I learned that if you want to be muscular like a horse or gorilla, you have to eat like a horse or gorilla.

jn6047


Ciccio, that was funny, yes if you ate like a Gorrilla jn6047, then your genetics is what would be the cause of your build, but ironically there is some truth in the fact that their diet lends itself to their build and strength, ie. it does not CAUSE it, (that is their genetics of course), it is what SUPPORTS it. (see below on alkalinity)

So here is whare I ask the following, seeing you have all concentrated on the diet, (I already knew about the need for protein and possibly creatine ingestion*), I have to ask, WHAT IS IT THEY NEED TO LEARN ABOUT EATING?

These guys are garbage disposal units, and in a literal sense this may be the source of the problem, ie. they think 'cause I can't get fat, then Maccas or KFC is not a problem' - WRONG they need to be on a completely fresh course FULL TIME, (like the rest of us!) RIGHT??

Is this what they need to learn? I know that means literally 2-3 times the volume of food compared to their poor eating, but what is a sample day for them?

* As far as I know, Creatine may not be ideal for this build, anyone got any evidence to suggest this supplement is better for Mesos or Endos? Or is their no reason to doubt it for Ectos also?


NanoGreens 10 is the best product I have used and something we endorse through our site (here is a direct link: mybiopharmacy.com/a/1168/). Most people 'feel' a difference within a few weeks of taking it... others are not so sure until they go off the product and then they feel it.


Thanks for chiming in Brian, I actually was hoping you would, I think I will be ordering some for my own use, but my issue is the expense and postage to Australia.

But without losing track of the original intent of the post, what are your ideas on an alkalised state and the acidic state and the role of supplements, (such as Nanogreens) and any other products on this.

As an ex-chemist I find this intriguing, I was always aware of pH as a fundamental aspect of biology but never realised the importance of this asymmetry and the BATTLE that erupts in maintaining and ensuring a proper asymmetry into alkalinity that presents itself in this modern acidifying environment.

Let us all not forget that fatigue and muscular work is acidic and the DESIRED POTENTIAL result is alkalisation to MINIMISE the potential to become acidic.

Agree?

Sean.
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seanoz

bigmikep wrote:
you will know when you are taking Nano_greens. I am convinced it is a good product.

The other product I recommened is Disacted Liver. Get the stuff through Gironda nutrition. It is cold processed so the nutriets and still intact for absorbtion.

However for the most part with supplements, save your money. Spending the money on raw eggs, and if you can get your hands on it, raw cream, milk and butter is the greatest thing I have taken into my body to progress my training results.

Michael


Thanks for the tips Mike, I must say that disected Liver sounds like a wise supplement, but I also have to say it is slightly ironic you are taking that while eating raw eggs.

You should be aware that raw egg white can lead to B vitamin deficiency due to it being unable to be digested compeletely because in the non-hydrolysed state an enzyme in the whites called 'avidin' can destroy biotin.

However the yolk contains alot of Biotin and the two cancel each other out if the entire egg is eaten raw, and therefore Biotin is then available from other sources.

So this is the ONLY concern I know of, (besides the disgusting taste and feel of a raw egg), but I just thought you all might like to know that, even though I bet Mike already knows that!

http://www.jbc.org/.../full/279/41/e5

http://www.jbc.org/...sid=92/2384/224
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Yes

seanoz wrote:

Ohh don't worry, they are getting the hard work done, I run a solid HIT routine on all my clients be they 70 or 17, 10-12 exercises and always to a solid failure.

In the beginning with their builds I cycle longer TUL with a much shorter until form is found, (some tend to be shaky when inroading deeply-quickly) with some intensity extenders.

I was reffering to the hard work of eating right. I think that's what they should concentrate on first and foremost.

Supplements just seems like trying to take a bad shortcut, instead of taking care of the real problem - poor eating habits. They should learn to make better choices of food and eating enough to gain weight. No need to get fat, of course, but slowly and steadily increasing their weight.

They may be living on junk food but if they are ectomorphic i'll bet they eat like 10 year old girls.
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logicbdj

Ontario, CAN

To my knowledge NanoGreens will not ship outside North America. I've had someone in Ireland and one in England order from my own stock (I buy by the case, and so I have no problem in shipping to you... but as you stated, it is costly, and there is some risk in the government not letting it in... when I ship Indicate 'vegetable drink powder' and there haven't been problems yet... so far).

In regard to diet, I'm not well versed on your query... sorry. I don't want to make an uneducated comment. I'm aware of the effects baking soda can have on reduce lactate levels (or , at least, reducing the burning sensation during exercise), and so I do not doubt the potential effects alkalinity could have on other aspects of physiology.
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Rich Fitter

New Jersey, USA

Poper eating first and foremost. Quality calories with the proper ratios of P/F/C. Supplement wise, I am a big fan of BCAAs for recovery and a multivitamin. When I was younger I used dessicated liver from Beverly. Creatine may help but food and training are the keys.
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AShortt

Ontario, CAN

Very interesting! All life deals with these issues of ph and I wouldn't be at all surprised that your notions are well grounded.

I personally have noted a marked difference in signs of ph with varied body types especially endo/meso/ecto verse ecto/endo/meso.

Regards,
Andrew
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M Lipowski

New York, USA

Rich Fitter wrote:
Poper eating first and foremost. Quality calories with the proper ratios of P/F/C. Supplement wise, I am a big fan of BCAAs for recovery and a multivitamin. When I was younger I used dessicated liver from Beverly. Creatine may help but food and training are the keys.


I'm with Rich on thee BCAA's. I think the best BCAA supplement out there is Scivation Xtend. This is a staple in my supplementation. I also take Beverly International's Creatine Select and Scivation's VasoXplode which is maybe the best NO2 product I've used to date and I also take straight l-arginine first thing in the morning.

I used to take Beverly's Liver tabs also (Ultra 40). Great if you need a way of getting extra protein w/o being able to have a meal or suck down a protein shake but unecessary otherwise.



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jn6047

Please understand I spent most of my as a skinny bastard, at 5'10 after high school before I started training I weighed 150lbs, I was skinny. Learning to eat has gotten me where I am now.

Here's a basic outline for a skinny guy wanting to put on quality weight:


Meal 1:

4-6packs instant oats
8 egg whites

Meal 2:

12oz. tuna
1-1/2cup cooked rice

Meal 3:

8 oz chicken (boneless skinless)
10oz potatoe

Meal 4:

8 oz lean beef
1-1/2cup cooked rice

Meal 5:
8oz chicken (as above)
10oz potatoe
salad

There. Simple, basic, healthy. Supplement with a multi-vitamin, and once in a while throw in some fruit instead of a starchy carb. Drink 1 to 1-1/2 gallons of water a day. On weekends, eat whatever. Low intensity cardio (15 mins 3-4 times a week 3-4mph on treadmill) for apetite stimulation.

jn6047
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seanoz

Yes wrote:

I was reffering to the hard work of eating right. I think that's what they should concentrate on first and foremost.

Supplements just seems like trying to take a bad shortcut, instead of taking care of the real problem - poor eating habits. They should learn to make better choices of food and eating enough to gain weight. No need to get fat, of course, but slowly and steadily increasing their weight.

They may be living on junk food but if they are ectomorphic i'll bet they eat like 10 year old girls.


Thanks for clarifying Yes, that gives me a good idea of how to tackle this, I guess you mean, like a 10 year old girl in that they are ignorantly consuming any food as if there is no consequences? And that their genetics are always going to take care of them?

I have to admit, I too have always been lazy with the quality AND quantity of my diet. And I have paid for it many times, making me an endomorphic meso, rahter than a solid meso.

Sean
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seanoz

jn6047 wrote:

Meal 1:

4-6packs instant oats
8 egg whites

jn6047


Is that cooked? or Raw egg whites?, I know there is a lot of passion for raw in bodybuilding circles, I wonder if you read my post and are aware of avidin?

Also, do you know the rough calorie level for that plan?

Sean.
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seanoz

AShortt wrote:
Very interesting! All life deals with these issues of ph and I wouldn't be at all surprised that your notions are well grounded.


Thanks Andrew,

I was making this point because I think by default most successful BBs and trainers etc. are naturally alkaline, and I could easily surmise most here are already doing this by default.

I also want to note that on the alkaliser website they mention a 'detox' transition where 'flu like symptoms appear' as one progresses into into alkalinity, but I would not be suprised if this was the case and the symptoms as one was 'inverting' their overall pH into their opposite pH range

Hence why I feel this might be a key factor to track.

This intrigues me as being an indicator of many things when we get down to it, overtraining may mean a lack of buffering of the overall training demands, (acidity) and may indicate a lack of alkalyising intakes.

The total ability to assess pH may seem complicated, these water alkaliser sellers suggest urine testing in the morning.

I am going to get some strips and start looing at this more before and of course after I get an alkalyser. Anyone else here use 'Chemstrips'?


I personally have noted a marked difference in signs of ph with varied body types especially endo/meso/ecto verse ecto/endo/meso.

Regards,
Andrew



Then I think you are seeing what I am seeing, this is striking in simplicity, all the obese people I see when I get them to discuss diet and lifestyle show signs of acidity and a lack of ability to buffer and return to alkalinity.

It seems too simple, but then again, that is where all the great things are sourced.

Without seeming too philosophical, I have for a long time wondered what was the asymmetry that was being exhibited by the healthy and functional being that we were observing, - what was the elephant they brought into the room? - if it is the fact they maintain a strong buffered alkalinity then there it is, but that requires discipline and regular patterns of sleep and positive activity, (sex, sleep and play etc.), proper exercise, proper diet and a positive attitude they can maintina it.

Sean.
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Yes

seanoz wrote:
Yes wrote:

I was reffering to the hard work of eating right. I think that's what they should concentrate on first and foremost.

Supplements just seems like trying to take a bad shortcut, instead of taking care of the real problem - poor eating habits. They should learn to make better choices of food and eating enough to gain weight. No need to get fat, of course, but slowly and steadily increasing their weight.

They may be living on junk food but if they are ectomorphic i'll bet they eat like 10 year old girls.


Thanks for clarifying Yes, that gives me a good idea of how to tackle this, I guess you mean, like a 10 year old girl in that they are ignorantly consuming any food as if there is no consequences? And that their genetics are always going to take care of them?

I have to admit, I too have always been lazy with the quality AND quantity of my diet. And I have paid for it many times, making me an endomorphic meso, rahter than a solid meso.

Sean


It's seems true that they are ignorantly consuming any food, without thinking of the consequences. But I actually did not think of that before you said it. :-)

What I meant was that they probably don't eat very much at all. Even though their genetics might help, thin people are usually thin mostly because they don't eat very much at all.

I know, I know... we all know people who are seemingly able to gorge themselves on junk food and still stay thin. But most of these people eat less than you might think, and they think they eat a lot more than they actually do.

It's like a good friend of mine who occasionally lives on junk. I often see him eat burgers, pizza, ice cream etc. etc. Still, he won't lose that six pack... So I asked him one day how many times he eats, and he answered once or twice, sometimes he forgets to eat at all.

I could live like that myself without gaining much, or any, weight at all.

My guess is that your clients are just like that too. They live on junk food and probably tell you that they can eat "a lot", while they are in fact near starving between meals.

If that's the case they need more regular eating habits, more meals per day and of course a healthier choice of foods.

Personally I also believe in making gradual changes - taking one or two steps at a time until they have learned better habits. However such changes take time and i'll bet they would like to see fast results, so it might be difficult to make them do that. Instead of only seeing the direct rewards, perhaps you can make them see the value of a better lifestyle.

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Acerimmer1

Arm & Hammer toothpaste: top stuff!
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jn6047

Yes is right. When I was a skinny bastard, I could go out for lunch with friends and eat two meals off the menu in a sitting. Everyone would mention how I was a literal garbage disposal and would never fill up. But, I only did this one or two times a day.

As for the calories in my sample diet, somewhere between 3500-4000cals I recon.

As for the comment about eating like a horse or gorilla, what I meant was that horses and gorillas graze all day long, and take in a huge amount of clean cals.

As for my opinion on PH, my only opinion is that different parts of our bodies exist in different PH levels. I think that worrying about PH levels is complicating the matter, but that's just me.

jn6047
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marcrph

Portugal

AShortt wrote:
Very interesting! All life deals with these issues of ph and I wouldn't be at all surprised that your notions are well grounded.

I personally have noted a marked difference in signs of ph with varied body types especially endo/meso/ecto verse ecto/endo/meso.

Regards,
Andrew


The only measurement of pH in a medical setting is usually done by a respiratory therapist by means of a sophisticated lab arterial blood gas(ouch). This is an accurate measurement of blood pH. When I read of discussions about pH, I realize the educational shortcomings of the masses of pH.

By the way for those who don't know, the body has mechanisms to buffer pH.
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seanoz

marcrph wrote:
AShortt wrote:
Very interesting! All life deals with these issues of ph and I wouldn't be at all surprised that your notions are well grounded.

I personally have noted a marked difference in signs of ph with varied body types especially endo/meso/ecto verse ecto/endo/meso.

Regards,
Andrew

The only measurement of pH in a medical setting is usually done by a respiratory therapist by means of a sophisticated lab arterial blood gas(ouch). This is an accurate measurement of blood pH. When I read of discussions about pH, I realize the educational shortcomings of the masses of pH.
[\quote]

Marc, don't get me wrong, the nature of pH is much more than a simple litmus on the toungue or in the stream of urine.

I know alot about pH and electircal and water dynamics and ion theory etc. but it's overall role in biology seems to me to be an interesting element in the puzzle.

The point is, is this an elephant in the room that we have all not noticed, there are consistancies here, and I want to explore them.


By the way for those who don't know, the body has mechanisms to buffer pH.


My point exactly, the thing you need to consider here is how changes in the bodies overall potential due to upsetting this function through training is what I am talking about.


Tell me more of your ideas on this.

Sean.
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AShortt

Ontario, CAN

seanoz wrote:
AShortt wrote:
Very interesting! All life deals with these issues of ph and I wouldn't be at all surprised that your notions are well grounded.
Thanks Andrew,

I was making this point because I think by default most successful BBs and trainers etc. are naturally alkaline, and I could easily surmise most here are already doing this by default.

I also want to note that on the alkaliser website they mention a 'detox' transition where 'flu like symptoms appear' as one progresses into into alkalinity, but I would not be suprised if this was the case and the symptoms as one was 'inverting' their overall pH into their opposite pH range

Hence why I feel this might be a key factor to track.

This intrigues me as being an indicator of many things when we get down to it, overtraining may mean a lack of buffering of the overall training demands, (acidity) and may indicate a lack of alkalyising intakes.

The total ability to assess pH may seem complicated, these water alkaliser sellers suggest urine testing in the morning.

I am going to get some strips and start looing at this more before and of course after I get an alkalyser. Anyone else here use 'Chemstrips'?

I personally have noted a marked difference in signs of ph with varied body types especially endo/meso/ecto verse ecto/endo/meso.
Regards,
Andrew

Then I think you are seeing what I am seeing, this is striking in simplicity, all the obese people I see when I get them to discuss diet and lifestyle show signs of acidity and a lack of ability to buffer and return to alkalinity.

It seems too simple, but then again, that is where all the great things are sourced.

Without seeming too philosophical, I have for a long time wondered what was the asymmetry that was being exhibited by the healthy and functional being that we were observing, - what was the elephant they brought into the room? - if it is the fact they maintain a strong buffered alkalinity then there it is, but that requires discipline and regular patterns of sleep and positive activity, (sex, sleep and play etc.), proper exercise, proper diet and a positive attitude they can maintina it.

Sean.


This is some of the most interesting and thought provoking stuff I have come across in a long time. Please...please keep us posted as you look into this further. These issue speak to the heart of physiology and stress physiology, I think we need to pay attention here, something is bound to surface if only a bit at a time.

Regards,
Andrew
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AShortt

Ontario, CAN

marcrph wrote:
AShortt wrote:
Very interesting! All life deals with these issues of ph and I wouldn't be at all surprised that your notions are well grounded.

I personally have noted a marked difference in signs of ph with varied body types especially endo/meso/ecto verse ecto/endo/meso.

Regards,
Andrew

The only measurement of pH in a medical setting is usually done by a respiratory therapist by means of a sophisticated lab arterial blood gas(ouch). This is an accurate measurement of blood pH. When I read of discussions about pH, I realize the educational shortcomings of the masses of pH.

By the way for those who don't know, the body has mechanisms to buffer pH.


I am not just reffering to blood ph. Tissue, sweat, stomach function and on and on all live and die by ph levels.

Regards,
Andrew
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