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"Doing more exercise with less intensity,"
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must be done . . . and quickly."
The New Bodybuilding for
Old-School Results supplies
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Ever Tried 2 Sets to Failure?
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Welshace13

Me and probably most of you guys on here only do 1 set to failure. Any of you guys do 2 or 3 sets to failure?

What kind of results have you experienced in mass and strength adding the extra set?

Im just curious to see what kind of results they have produced.
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stevecollins33

Welshace13 wrote:
Me and probably most of you guys on here only do 1 set to failure. Any of you guys do 2 or 3 sets to failure?

What kind of results have you experienced in mass and strength adding the extra set?

Im just curious to see what kind of results they have produced.


Hi Welshace
I think it pays to mix up intensity and will sometimes do two sets to failure, or near failure.

An example of the former is barbell curls: 1x10ish to failure. Brief pause for 30 seconds then same weight for 3 reps or so to failure in good form.
An example of the latter is DB chest press (same formula as above). Since training to failure using this exercise is unsafe, doing the extra set to near failure again is sufficient to leave me with light muscle soreness for a day or two afterwards (always a decent sign!)

I'm considering a technique heralded by HIT guru Stuart McRobert called the 6X6. Making sure you have a large clock with second hand in your training area, pick an exercise, e.g. chins, that you can manage ten good form reps.

Do a set of six reps then rest for one minute exactly; then do a second set of six reps then rest for one minute. Repeat this for six intervals. McRobert claims during No4 you'll start to know all about it, by No5 you'll be having real problems, and by No6 you probably won't be able to get close to the magic 6th rep.

Like any other HIT method, he urges caution and recommends this for, e.g. a lagging body part or just to blast through a lull. Sounds pretty good!
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BIO-FORCE

California, USA

Welshace13 wrote:
Me and probably most of you guys on here only do 1 set to failure. Any of you guys do 2 or 3 sets to failure?

What kind of results have you experienced in mass and strength adding the extra set?

Im just curious to see what kind of results they have produced.


I have been developing a program, that has the following:

* 2-4 sets to RM (each set is taken to a rep maximum each workout)

*Rep ranges from 30-5 spaced to cover the rep spectrum such as 30/15/7, or 20/10/5

* Only two to three Primary Exercises per workout at this intensity

* Split Routine with 3 - 7 days between each session

* Progress in as many sets as possible each Workout, so that eventually you set or equal 6-8 PR's (Personal Records) each workout.

* When possible arrange the exercises in "opposing/antagonist pairs" and alternate to maximize the rest period between exercises.

* Rest as long as needed between sets, to allow for "maximum efforts".

* Be prepared for the most intense Workouts you have ever undertaken.


Results were by far better than any program I had ever used in both strength and hypertrophy.
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Paul25

BIO-FORCE wrote:
Welshace13 wrote:
Me and probably most of you guys on here only do 1 set to failure. Any of you guys do 2 or 3 sets to failure?

What kind of results have you experienced in mass and strength adding the extra set?

Im just curious to see what kind of results they have produced.

I have been developing a program, that has the following:

* 2-4 sets to RM (each set is taken to a rep maximum each workout)

*Rep ranges from 30-5 spaced to cover the rep spectrum such as 30/15/7, or 20/10/5

* Only two to three Primary Exercises per workout at this intensity

* Split Routine with 3 - 7 days between each session

* Progress in as many sets as possible each Workout, so that eventually you set or equal 6-8 PR's (Personal Records) each workout.

* When possible arrange the exercises in "opposing/antagonist pairs" and alternate to maximize the rest period between exercises.

* Rest as long as needed between sets, to allow for "maximum efforts".

* Be prepared for the most intense Workouts you have ever undertaken.


Results were by far better than any program I had ever used in both strength and hypertrophy.


Go and post your marketing crap elsewhere John Bioshowman! Dr Kens 50% sets are good for 2 sets to failure!

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Welshace13

thanks for the feedback on that guys.

i tried it earlier on standing overhead press as i was bored, did 1 set of 10 reps with 50kg, then 5mins rest, 50kg 10 reps to failure, used rest pause on the last 2 reps of each set. i might try it again in 7 days to see if and by how much i have improved by. just doing it out of curiosty, feel like experimenting.
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Growl

Welshace,
Remember that when you do that, you must include extra recovery time. I do believe that there is value there but one must be allowed to recover and grow.

When I first experimented with performing a warm-up set to failure, followed by a work set to failure, I ended up with something like Bio-Force is suggesting for his two set option. It got me out of a long slump of not growing. I was only hitting a body part directly once per week like that.

Many do swear by Dr. Ken's 50% sets.

A.J. had a 3 set scheme using lower rep goals than John. He wrote about them in Bulletin #1, chapter 18.
He wrote:
"In practice, best results are usually produced by the 10/8/6 system of repetitions and sets; in this system, a weight is selected that will permit not more than ten repetitions during the first set, and then the resistance is increased for the second set, to a point that will permit not more than eight repetitions, and in the third set the resistance is increased to an amount that will permit six repetitions. But in all cases, all possible repetitions are performed in each set -- and the weight is increased at the time of the next workout if it was possible to perform the designated number of repetitions with the weight selected.

"Thus, in practice, a subject usually will actually perform only about 8/6/4 repetitions --or possibly 7/5/3 repetitions; when he actually performs 10/8/6 repetitions, then the resistance is increased again."


Jeff
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McNultyEssex

Well controlled studies that measured hypertrophy by scanning methods report no advantage to performing more sets with the same load, having completed one set to failure.

Therefore, volume per se does not appear to be a stimulus for muscle growth.

However, if you're dropping the weight for successive sets (i.e. breakdowns), 2 sets to failure may be a good way to go for a while.
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mpx

I do 3-5 per muscle in 3 exercises. I haven't found that I get results with SSTF.

Tonight my workout was...

Incline Smith in a Rest Pause DC fashion.
6 reps/rest 20-30 secs/3 reps/rest 20-30 secs/1 rep. It's one huge set or 3 mini sets depending how you look at it.

Then onto Decline Hammer bench, performed in the same way and then finally Nautilus Pec Deck for 2 straight sets.

Then it's onto back, done in the same fashion using..Hammer Rows/RGPD/Nautilus Pullover.

35mins tops for
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AJFan

If I really push myself in the first set, the second set is a waste of time, because I'm so weak by that stage.
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Bill Sekerak

California, USA

Yes, back in the 70' s Arthur advised 3 sets, then two then one, he was right the last time.

Bill
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Ciccio

stevecollins33 wrote:
An example of the former is barbell curls: 1x10ish to failure. Brief pause for 30 seconds then same weight for 3 reps or so to failure in good form.
An example of the latter is DB chest press (same formula as above).


I wouldn't consider this to be multiple sets. It's more like Rest-Pause (even when 30seconds seems a bit long for rest, but maybe for very FT-muscles ok).
Anyways, a good way to really fry a muscle - with one set!

Franco

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Benjamin Dover

Bill Sekerak wrote:
Yes, back in the 70' s Arthur advised 3 sets, then two then one, he was right the last time.

Bill


Bill, wasn't the above (10/8/6) a specific squat routine anyway???? To be used in conjunction with ONE set of 20 rep squats?

Rather than add sets just use some carefully administered intensity variables (forced/negatives/negative accentuated/rest pause/etc).

Bill, don't you find it strange how "exercise addicts" find all kinds of ways to justify doing more work?

It's almost like tolerance of work and the need for work are the same thing...and they're NOT!

I suppose some people will always be emotional and respond to the feelings of wanting to do more. And some will be logical and respond to the NEED to perform limited work.
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Growl

Yes, Bill is correct.

James, we are answering the topic of the thread and were not attempting an "us" against "them" argument. The answer was yeah, we have attempted a second set and the example was given to show that HIT used to be a couple (or few) of hard sets. People busting their asses and training naturally in the gym have my respect. I really don't care if they do one or two sets or even three as A.J. liked in that article. It was still a great departure from the twenty-five sets that were being pushed in the magazines. No, A.J. wasn't an addict when he wrote that and neither are other low volume folks, whether they do one or two sets. Dr. Darden also had plenty of routines where more than one set of an exercise was called for. At some point, we should understand that people are going to experiment and not fault them for that or attempt to label them addicts.

Jeff
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Benjamin Dover

Growl wrote:
Yes, Bill is correct.

James, we are answering the topic of the thread and were not attempting an "us" against "them" argument. The answer was yeah, we have attempted a second set and the example was given to show that HIT used to be a couple (or few) of hard sets. People busting their asses and training naturally in the gym have my respect. I really don't care if they do one or two sets or even three as A.J. liked in that article. It was still a great departure from the twenty-five sets that were being pushed in the magazines. No, A.J. wasn't an addict when he wrote that and neither are other low volume folks, whether they do one or two sets. Dr. Darden also had plenty of routines where more than one set of an exercise was called for. At some point, we should understand that people are going to experiment and not fault them for that or attempt to label them addicts.

Jeff


I'm sorry I upset you Jeff. Not the intention. My answer is "yes" 2 sets, 3 sets, 4 sets, 5 sets. You name it I've tried it. Natural and "busting my ass".

However... there is another post on this thread that doesn't exactly answer the question...it actually promotes a methodology...a sales pitch if you will...

Anyway, again Jeff my apologies.


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Growl

Ciccio wrote:
stevecollins33 wrote:
An example of the former is barbell curls: 1x10ish to failure. Brief pause for 30 seconds then same weight for 3 reps or so to failure in good form.
An example of the latter is DB chest press (same formula as above).

I wouldn't consider this to be multiple sets. It's more like Rest-Pause (even when 30seconds seems a bit long for rest, but maybe for very FT-muscles ok).
Anyways, a good way to really fry a muscle - with one set!

Franco



I have used this technique with even less rest time with success. Do a hard set to failure, take a couple of seconds to rest and attempt another, and then another. It worked well when training very infrequently, such as once per week for me. I never worried whether or not I was violating some one set rule or not as making progress was my concern and not validating any current doctrine.

Jeff

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Growl

JamesT wrote:
Growl wrote:
Yes, Bill is correct.

James, we are answering the topic of the thread and were not attempting an "us" against "them" argument. The answer was yeah, we have attempted a second set and the example was given to show that HIT used to be a couple (or few) of hard sets. People busting their asses and training naturally in the gym have my respect. I really don't care if they do one or two sets or even three as A.J. liked in that article. It was still a great departure from the twenty-five sets that were being pushed in the magazines. No, A.J. wasn't an addict when he wrote that and neither are other low volume folks, whether they do one or two sets. Dr. Darden also had plenty of routines where more than one set of an exercise was called for. At some point, we should understand that people are going to experiment and not fault them for that or attempt to label them addicts.

Jeff

I'm sorry I upset you Jeff. Not the intention. My answer is "yes" 2 sets, 3 sets, 4 sets, 5 sets. You name it I've tried it. Natural and "busting my ass".

However... there is another post on this thread that doesn't exactly answer the question...it actually promotes a methodology...a sales pitch if you will...

Anyway, again Jeff my apologies.




I'm not upset and in fact, I consider you a brother as you train hard and love the same thing I do. I do like HIT in all of its forms from the Bulletins to Mentzer. I own a real estate brokerage and am not in the exercise business yet so I won't try and sell anything any time soon, except maybe a house.

Jeff

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Benjamin Dover

Jeff, I've just built one in the English countryside and I never want to leave, ever!!! Besides, my old boy said I should never trust an estate agent!:-)

Thanks Jeff
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Growl

JamesT wrote:
Jeff, I've just built one in the English countryside and I never want to leave, ever!!! Besides, my old boy said I should never trust an estate agent!:-)

Thanks Jeff


Your old boy was right. I can't stand them myself. They are worse than car salesmen but all I can do is keep my own nose clean while trying to feed the family.
Jeff

Edit*
BTW, James, that's the same advice I give to my family members about personal trainers. When they are joining a gym, I say "don't trust them". Like your old boy, I'm looking out for my people with that warning and I'm usually right.



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eintology

California, USA

Growl wrote:
Ciccio wrote:

I wouldn't consider this to be multiple sets. It's more like Rest-Pause (even when 30seconds seems a bit long for rest, but maybe for very FT-muscles ok).
Anyways, a good way to really fry a muscle - with one set!

Franco

I have used this technique with even less rest time with success. Do a hard set to failure, take a couple of seconds to rest and attempt another, and then another. It worked well when training very infrequently, such as once per week for me. I never worried whether or not I was violating some one set rule or not as making progress was my concern and not validating any current doctrine.

Jeff


I've gotten some of my best results, training in the manner being described here.

Can't go crazy with this technique, but this additional stimulus; as long as the overall volume and frequency is in check, has provided a better response for me than straight SSTF.

E
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Benjamin Dover

Growl wrote:

Edit*
BTW, James, that's the same advice I give to my family members about personal trainers. When they are joining a gym, I say "don't trust them". Like your old boy, I'm looking out for my people with that warning and I'm usually right.





I can't argue with that!

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ron33

Paul25 wrote:
BIO-FORCE wrote:
Welshace13 wrote:
Me and probably most of you guys on here only do 1 set to failure. Any of you guys do 2 or 3 sets to failure?

What kind of results have you experienced in mass and strength adding the extra set?

Im just curious to see what kind of results they have produced.

I have been developing a program, that has the following:

* 2-4 sets to RM (each set is taken to a rep maximum each workout)

*Rep ranges from 30-5 spaced to cover the rep spectrum such as 30/15/7, or 20/10/5

* Only two to three Primary Exercises per workout at this intensity

* Split Routine with 3 - 7 days between each session

* Progress in as many sets as possible each Workout, so that eventually you set or equal 6-8 PR's (Personal Records) each workout.

* When possible arrange the exercises in "opposing/antagonist pairs" and alternate to maximize the rest period between exercises.

* Rest as long as needed between sets, to allow for "maximum efforts".

* Be prepared for the most intense Workouts you have ever undertaken.


Results were by far better than any program I had ever used in both strength and hypertrophy.

Go and post your marketing crap elsewhere John Bioshowman! Dr Kens 50% sets are good for 2 sets to failure!

When i had more energy as a young man i did a workout very simular to what Bio is describing.except i did'nt have as many rest days and i only went as high as 20 reps.It worked very well for me,i was in great condition and the only guy's in the gym that used more weight were 2 pro level bber's .They did'nt work physical job's like me, and were on various roids that were popular at the time.while i remained natural,just ate good quality food, regular vitamins and plenty of extra carbs from hops, barley and liquified grapes.

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liftforlife

Michigan, USA

Yes I have tried 2 sets to failure...and three sets. That is mostly for cafes. I don't have access to machine for this. Just calf raises with dumb bell. If anyone has Ellington Darden's New High Intensity Training book look on page 18. That is Viator's Famous workout in May of 1972. He clearly did more than one set to failure but not with the same exercise. The leg press and leg extension before full squat in the same workout. That was a pre exhaust leg cycle and alot of the other exercises over lap. Like behind the neck pulldowns and chin ups. that sounds like two sets to failure.
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Paul25

liftforlife wrote:
Yes I have tried 2 sets to failure...and three sets. That is mostly for cafes. I don't have access to machine for this. Just calf raises with dumb bell. If anyone has Ellington Darden's New High Intensity Training book look on page 18. That is Viator's Famous workout in May of 1972. He clearly did more than one set to failure but not with the same exercise. The leg press and leg extension before full squat in the same workout. That was a pre exhaust leg cycle and alot of the other exercises over lap. Like behind the neck pulldowns and chin ups. that sounds like two sets to failure.


Viator had great GENECTICS so what worked for him won't work for the Genectically average fella due to poor adpatation Energy Recovery!

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TheDudeAbides

Michigan, USA

Do it all the time. One set doesn't do it for me. It's difficult to go to complete failure (whatever that really means) by myself. I also feel that I have too much gas in the tank with one set.
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Welshace13

TheDudeAbides wrote:
Do it all the time. One set doesn't do it for me. It's difficult to go to complete failure (whatever that really means) by myself. I also feel that I have too much gas in the tank with one set.


same here, i always got loads of energy. i do once a week training anyway , on 2-3 lifts, so 2 sets isnt really that much volume just for 2-3 excersises once every 7 days.
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