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"Doing more exercise with less intensity,"
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of weight training. Something
must be done . . . and quickly."
The New Bodybuilding for
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MUCH of that "something."

 

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Original 14 Machines
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kurtvf

In Dr. Darden's new book, there is a mention of the original 14 nautilus machines (5 lower body, 9 upper body). Which machines were the original 14? In what order did they come out? The OME was probably one of the originals, but is it considered upper or lower body??
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Ellington Darden

Yes, the OME was one of the originals.

Ellington
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sgsims1

I bet Landau could answer this one.
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southbeach

I too would like a list of the original machines (how do you define "original")

I have a question.. why did Arthur use chains rather than cables? Don't chains have more friction? Knowing Arthur I am sure he had a good reason ;)
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Ellington Darden

Here's my take on the first Nautilus machines:

1. Pullover
2. Combination Biceps/Triceps
3. Leg Extension
4. Hip & Back
5. Behind Neck
6. Rowing-Torso
7. Torso-Arm Pulldown
8. Leg Curl
9. Compound-Position Triceps
10. Multi-Exercise

Ellington

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TOM C

I'm curious as to what year Nautilus went into production.

I remember training in Wayne Burbidge's garage in 1969 in Vancouver, Canada and he had the single arm Hip & Back (a real power exercise-way better than than dual arm)which was supersetted with the Nautilus leg extension. He also had the behind the neck Bicep curl, the Pullover/pulldown and a very strange tricep machine where you elbows were pushed way back (it didn't work very well and I've never seen one since). It was another year before he could get the compound chest and shoulder machines.
At that time, the recommended repetitions as published by Nautilus in their IronMan ads were 20 reps per movement done as fast as possible.
Training in that fashion actually produced some very good results.
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Nautilus1975

These are the machines that were available to me in May 1971 - according to my order form from Arthur Jones Productions Box 1783, Deland Florida, 32720, 904 228-2884 (the first number)-

Pullover - type Torso machine:
Behind - neck Type Torso Machine:
Torso-Arm Machine:
Nautilus "Double Chest" Machines
Nautilus "Double Shoulder" Machines
VERTICAL TYPE SHOULDER MACHINES
COMBINATION CURLING &TRICEPS MACHINES
NAUTILUS CURLING MACHINE
NAUTILUS TRICEPS MACHINE
NAUTILUS SEMI-COMPOUND TRICEPS MACHINE
NAUTILUS COMPOUND TRICEPS MACHINE
NAUTILUS Leg-Press MACHINES
NAUTILUS Thigh-Extension MACHINES
NAUTILUS Squat MACHINES
NAUTILUS Thigh-Curl MACHINES
NAUTILUS "Glute-Curl" MACHINES


All with prices and spelled and capitalized and punctuated the way I typed them.

Maybe some of you were around before mid 1971- I don't know, but that is the list I have. 10 of those would have set you back 10 grand + crating (and shipping) in 1971, and by 1974 they were triple that price and climbing. By 75 I think a single full cicuit was like 150K after financing.

I don't remember the OME until 74-75. I may be wrong.

I have pictures of ours and others
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Nautilus1975

Also - on the chains vs. cables -

It is my understanding that the original machines were cables - I believe many of the plate loaded pullovers were thick cables that did not flex well and added to the horrible high friction reputation and stigma that almost ALL of the earlier machines and "Time Machines" have. Some printed sales material actually gives the buyer the OPTION of purchasing a machine with cables or "lifetime" chains (mine does)

Arthur hated Lawyers and supposedly some crap came up with a cable failing and a laywer, so he said screw it and went to what he considered to be bullet proof "lifetime" chains (which is simply not true - they wear out) and solve the problem once and for all.


This is the way I heard the story from a pretty well know person and first hand account who WAS actually there at the time, but who knows - it may be folklore too like a large percentage of the so called "experts" and self appointed historians have decided to portray events

;-)
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kurtvf

In photos I have seen of the early plate loaded pullover and bi/tri machines they had cables and not chains. It would be pure assumption on my part but cable (wire rope) AKA "aircraft cable" might have come from AJ's aircraft experience, as I am almost certain that is where the inspiration for "engine turning" of the aluminum cams came from. Engine turned aluminum is or was very common on aircraft.
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kurtvf

I've seen a double shoulder machine with spider cams, but I've never seen a double chest machine with spider cams. I would have to assume the shoulder machine came out a bit earlier.
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Ellington Darden

TOM C wrote:
I'm curious as to what year Nautilus went into production.

I remember training in Wayne Burbidge's garage in 1969 in Vancouver, Canada and he had the single arm Hip & Back (a real power exercise-way better than than dual arm)which was supersetted with the Nautilus leg extension. He also had the behind the neck Bicep curl, the Pullover/pulldown and a very strange tricep machine where you elbows were pushed way back (it didn't work very well and I've never seen one since). It was another year before he could get the compound chest and shoulder machines.
At that time, the recommended repetitions as published by Nautilus in their IronMan ads were 20 reps per movement done as fast as possible.
Training in that fashion actually produced some very good results.


There were NO Nautilus machines in 1969. The first Nautilus machine, a Pullover, was sold in late November of 1970.

Ellington

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Ellington Darden

Nautilus1975 wrote:
These are the machines that were available to me in May 1971 - according to my order form from Arthur Jones Productions Box 1783, Deland Florida, 32720, 904 228-2884 (the first number)-

Pullover - type Torso machine:
Behind - neck Type Torso Machine:
Torso-Arm Machine:
Nautilus "Double Chest" Machines
Nautilus "Double Shoulder" Machines
VERTICAL TYPE SHOULDER MACHINES
COMBINATION CURLING &TRICEPS MACHINES
NAUTILUS CURLING MACHINE
NAUTILUS TRICEPS MACHINE
NAUTILUS SEMI-COMPOUND TRICEPS MACHINE
NAUTILUS COMPOUND TRICEPS MACHINE
NAUTILUS Leg-Press MACHINES
NAUTILUS Thigh-Extension MACHINES
NAUTILUS Squat MACHINES
NAUTILUS Thigh-Curl MACHINES
NAUTILUS "Glute-Curl" MACHINES


All with prices and spelled and capitalized and punctuated the way I typed them.

Maybe some of you were around before mid 1971- I don't know, but that is the list I have. 10 of those would have set you back 10 grand + crating (and shipping) in 1971, and by 1974 they were triple that price and climbing. By 75 I think a single full cicuit was like 150K after financing.

I don't remember the OME until 74-75. I may be wrong.

I have pictures of ours and others


With the exception of the Pullover and Torso-Arm machines and the Combination Biceps/Triceps machines, the other listed machines were simply rough drawings or in Jones's head. They were nowhere close to production in May of 1971. Some took years to perfect and others never panned out.

Ellington

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TOM C

Upon reflection, you're right, it was more likely 1971-1972, then a few years later, we saw the multi-exerciser,compound leg machine, Omni bicep, tricep, etc.
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Joshua Trentine

Ohio, USA

I know a number of people here have converted the vintage nautilus machines back to cable drive for better feel/less friction, i'm sure there is strong enough and flexible cable.

I was wondering if there is anyone who could post a picture of how they attach the cable to the aluminum cams, and provide specs on the type of cable most appropriate.

oh......and perhaps pulley wheel manufacturer of choice

thank you
Joshua
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Nautilus1975

"With the exception of the Pullover and Torso-Arm machines and the Combination Biceps/Triceps machines, the other listed machines were simply rough drawings or in Jones's head. They were nowhere close to production in May of 1971. Some took years to perfect and others never panned out.

Ellington "

I know on that invoice they claimed they could deliver some of the machines immediately and some withing a few weeks....

As it turned out when we firmed up on the order about 6-10 months later it took another year before the stuff ever showed up if I remember correctly.

Who knows - maybe that was when his delivery guy was stealing his machines and reselling them several times per set.
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Nautilus1975

Joshua Trentine wrote:
I know a number of people here have converted the vintage nautilus machines back to cable drive for better feel/less friction, i'm sure there is strong enough and flexible cable.

I was wondering if there is anyone who could post a picture of how they attach the cable to the aluminum cams, and provide specs on the type of cable most appropriate.

oh......and perhaps pulley wheel manufacturer of choice

thank you
Joshua



There really isn't a pulley that just drops in - you have to machine and fabricate parts...and shims. You want a sealed bearing pulley and to fabricate a press fit bushing for the center of the pulley with a ledge on one side to center the pulley. Not all pullies will be the same diameter.

You can attach cables with a small length of chain to the cam, but you usually need to move the attachment point - OR you can fabricate a connecting system from scratch.

There are lists of bearing sizes that fit the machines on the net somewhere...but your technique getting the things pressed in and getting the cams aligned without bind will be your learning curve. There is no set plan - each machine is different and some are better left with chains unless you go to Kevlar.


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Joshua Trentine

Ohio, USA

Nautilus1975 wrote:
Joshua Trentine wrote:
I know a number of people here have converted the vintage nautilus machines back to cable drive for better feel/less friction, i'm sure there is strong enough and flexible cable.

I was wondering if there is anyone who could post a picture of how they attach the cable to the aluminum cams, and provide specs on the type of cable most appropriate.

oh......and perhaps pulley wheel manufacturer of choice

thank you
Joshua


There really isn't a pulley that just drops in - you have to machine and fabricate parts...and shims. You want a sealed bearing pulley and to fabricate a press fit bushing for the center of the pulley with a ledge on one side to center the pulley. Not all pullies will be the same diameter.

You can attach cables with a small length of chain to the cam, but you usually need to move the attachment point - OR you can fabricate a connecting system from scratch.

There are lists of bearing sizes that fit the machines on the net somewhere...but your technique getting the things pressed in and getting the cams aligned without bind will be your learning curve. There is no set plan - each machine is different and some are better left with chains unless you go to Kevlar.





Thank you NAUTILUS1975

I agree many of them will not be good for this retrofit,for some of them it may be an improvement.

i have the pulley wheel worked out.

i'm working on fabricating a way to attach the cable, if anyone has an idea or pic it would be greatly appreciated.

thank you
joshua
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kurtvf

I think bearings in the pulleys and major pivot points would cut down friction much more than changing the chains to cables or belts. AFAIK, kevlar belts are used today since they are low maintenance and require no cleaning or lubrication.
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kurtvf

Joshua Trentine wrote:
I know a number of people here have converted the vintage nautilus machines back to cable drive for better feel/less friction, i'm sure there is strong enough and flexible cable.

I was wondering if there is anyone who could post a picture of how they attach the cable to the aluminum cams, and provide specs on the type of cable most appropriate.

oh......and perhaps pulley wheel manufacturer of choice

thank you
Joshua


If I were to do it I think I would leave several links of chain and use the standard way to attach the chain to the cam. Then I would design some type of clamp to grip the end of the cable. On the end of the clamp I would weld a 3/8" flat piece and drill a hole in it to attach it to the chain with a master link.

Vinyl coated wire rope would easily be strong enough.
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jastrain

kurtvf wrote:
Joshua Trentine wrote:
I know a number of people here have converted the vintage nautilus machines back to cable drive for better feel/less friction, i'm sure there is strong enough and flexible cable.

I was wondering if there is anyone who could post a picture of how they attach the cable to the aluminum cams, and provide specs on the type of cable most appropriate.

oh......and perhaps pulley wheel manufacturer of choice

thank you
Joshua

If I were to do it I think I would leave several links of chain and use the standard way to attach the chain to the cam. Then I would design some type of clamp to grip the end of the cable. On the end of the clamp I would weld a 3/8" flat piece and drill a hole in it to attach it to the chain with a master link.

Vinyl coated wire rope would easily be strong enough.


no!!! you want kevlar--kevlar dosent stretch it is hard as steel.it has no friction.i have used the cables they are crap.the biggest improvement to the old nautilas is to replace the bushings with needle roller bearings.this is extremely simple to do.once you do this the machines are as smoothe as silk..if you want to go nutts than, replace the chaines for kevlar but it doesnt make a huge difference.
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Joshua Trentine

Ohio, USA

jastrain wrote:
kurtvf wrote:
Joshua Trentine wrote:
I know a number of people here have converted the vintage nautilus machines back to cable drive for better feel/less friction, i'm sure there is strong enough and flexible cable.

I was wondering if there is anyone who could post a picture of how they attach the cable to the aluminum cams, and provide specs on the type of cable most appropriate.

oh......and perhaps pulley wheel manufacturer of choice

thank you
Joshua

If I were to do it I think I would leave several links of chain and use the standard way to attach the chain to the cam. Then I would design some type of clamp to grip the end of the cable. On the end of the clamp I would weld a 3/8" flat piece and drill a hole in it to attach it to the chain with a master link.

Vinyl coated wire rope would easily be strong enough.


no!!! you want kevlar--kevlar dosent stretch it is hard as steel.it has no friction.i have used the cables they are crap.the biggest improvement to the old nautilas is to replace the bushings with needle roller bearings.this is extremely simple to do.once you do this the machines are as smoothe as silk..if you want to go nutts than, replace the chaines for kevlar but it doesnt make a huge difference.



Thank you for the advice i put bearings in every articulation of all 50 machines many years ago, just looking for some other upgrades.

i agree the bearings are by far the greatest factor in removing friction.cables and kevlar may only improve "feel"
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robinn3403

jastrain wrote:
kurtvf wrote:
Joshua Trentine wrote:
I know a number of people here have converted the vintage nautilus machines back to cable drive for better feel/less friction, i'm sure there is strong enough and flexible cable.

I was wondering if there is anyone who could post a picture of how they attach the cable to the aluminum cams, and provide specs on the type of cable most appropriate.

oh......and perhaps pulley wheel manufacturer of choice

thank you
Joshua

If I were to do it I think I would leave several links of chain and use the standard way to attach the chain to the cam. Then I would design some type of clamp to grip the end of the cable. On the end of the clamp I would weld a 3/8" flat piece and drill a hole in it to attach it to the chain with a master link.

Vinyl coated wire rope would easily be strong enough.


no!!! you want kevlar--kevlar dosent stretch it is hard as steel.it has no friction.i have used the cables they are crap.the biggest improvement to the old nautilas is to replace the bushings with needle roller bearings.this is extremely simple to do.once you do this the machines are as smoothe as silk..if you want to go nutts than, replace the chaines for kevlar but it doesnt make a huge difference.


Jastrain,
I've got a Time Machine Pullover, A Behind Neck & a Leg Extension. Where would a get the bearings for these? Is it one stop shopping? How do I put them in? Any special tools needed? Will I need anybody to help?
Thanks for your direction!
RBN

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Nautilus1975


With the exception of the Pullover and Torso-Arm machines and the Combination Biceps/Triceps machines, the other listed machines were simply rough drawings or in Jones's head. They were nowhere close to production in May of 1971. Some took years to perfect and others never panned out.

Ellington



Hey Ellington -

I know you were really hands on with this stuff cause I have several pictures of you as a youngster in many of the photosets from the period. I know you were around during the period - BUT I also have a picture from a guys gym (Nautilus Center) in Ohio from late 1971 or early (Jan) '72 where he displays at least 6 or 7 of his brand new Nautilus machines on the floor - A few of the ones I spec'd above.

I also have a letter from Arthur Jones wanting to call us "collect" to verify our interest in his product from about the same time - HA! Funny guy.....

According to his published world wide circulation magazine articles, the man put in print that he could deliver the above mentioned machines F.O.B. dockside in Florida or ship them within a few weeks-

Are you saying this was all B.S. ? These machines were not even realities at the time?

Like I said I have a picture of the Ohio "Nautilus Franchisie" with the 6 -7 machines in late 71-early 72, but for all I know those might have been the only units in existence at the time. I also will confirm it took forever to get our units.

There is also a published letter from the KC Chiefs coach I believe in the literature that thanks Jones for helping one of his star players along in his "knee" rehabilitation by means of the teams privately owned equipment (the jist of the letter lead the readers to believe - it did not suggest the player went to Florida to receive therapy on one off, prototype contraptions) and I know they mentioned the leg extension, curl, and hip and back by name if I read it correctly.


Anyway, this will solve a curriosity for me as well cause besides Ken's and a few others recounts of the period I have no way to be sure.

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Nautilus1975

kurtvf wrote:
I think bearings in the pulleys and major pivot points would cut down friction much more than changing the chains to cables or belts. AFAIK, kevlar belts are used today since they are low maintenance and require no cleaning or lubrication.


The "timing" of the chain links as they hit the teeth of the adjacent sprockets cause significant friction in itself. This was found to be the case in many advanced overhead cam engines where complex chain runs fed onto several gears and idlers. In a machine where only a human is powering it it will be amplified. Most high strung performance engines went to belts to realize gains from decreasing parasitic horsepower loss.

Seemingly the more noticable friction problem will be on the negative where friction will really take off some load causing the negative to be lighter than it should be on a Nautilus machine - some say 30% - I don't know and I don't care about it enough to want to measure pr debate it - the fact that it is there is enough for me.

Not only does the chain itself have sticking properties, but the fact that the rollers want to ride on the front edges of one sprocket tooths, and maybe the rear of the next one in line, and possibly the exact opposite on the next cog in line can cause "timing" friction as well.

I lean towards cable because it goes right on if you are mechanical and can master proprietary tools - belts can require machine work.
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Nautilus1975


Jastrain,
I've got a Time Machine Pullover, A Behind Neck & a Leg Extension. Where would a get the bearings for these? Is it one stop shopping? How do I put them in? Any special tools needed? Will I need anybody to help?
Thanks for your direction!
RBN





Just my opinion, but I think there are more issues in the design of than machine (and other early units) than just bearing retrofit will overcome. Most people seem to like those for collectibilty and nostalgia than as a hard core, vastly improved high tech machine that could rival all of the offerings following it (like many retrofitted First Gen units can)

When I was lucky enough to get those neat older machines I sell them to collectors and keep them all original.
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