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Determine the Length of Your Workouts

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"Doing more exercise with less intensity,"
Arthur Jones believes, "has all but
destroyed the actual great value
of weight training. Something
must be done . . . and quickly."
The New Bodybuilding for
Old-School Results supplies
MUCH of that "something."

 

This is one of 93 photos of Andy McCutcheon that are used in The New High-Intensity Training to illustrate the recommended exercises.

To find out more about McCutcheon and his training, click here.

 

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Cumulative Fatigue Training
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Bastion

I was flipping through my copy of Beyond Brawn today and started reading about cumulative fatigue training.Stuart Mcrobert talks about 6x6,for example.I know Vince Gironda recommended something similar years ago.I'm just wondering if anyone here has had any experience using this method,or if it's just a bunch of Pumping BS?.I might try it on 1 or 2 exercises to see what it's like.Any feedback would be great!.
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southbeach

h.i.t.27 wrote:
I was flipping through my copy of Beyond Brawn today and started reading about cumulative fatigue training.Stuart Mcrobert talks about 6x6,for example.I know Vince Gironda recommended something similar years ago.I'm just wondering if anyone here has had any experience using this method,or if it's just a bunch of Pumping BS?.I might try it on 1 or 2 exercises to see what it's like.Any feedback would be great!.


What is it? A brief description would help.

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goya

I have done it for biceps. It works well if you follow Stuart's recommendation i.e only the last set should be very hard. It's kind of a specialization technique.

I tried the 6x6 variation for a while on the ez-bar curl. It gave a great pump and some growth, but I don't think it's better than single progression with micro loading.

I would say use it after you can't progress anymore on a single joint exercise. I would not do it on heavy compound exercises like squats, deads and bench.
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Waynes

Switzerland

h.i.t.27 wrote:
I was flipping through my copy of Beyond Brawn today and started reading about cumulative fatigue training.Stuart Mcrobert talks about 6x6,for example.I know Vince Gironda recommended something similar years ago.I'm just wondering if anyone here has had any experience using this method,or if it's just a bunch of Pumping BS?.I might try it on 1 or 2 exercises to see what it's like.Any feedback would be great!.


Give it a shot.

Not going to start a debate here on rep speeds, put all these 5 x 5 or 10 x 3 workouts are done and designed for the faster rep.

Why not try 6 x 6 with a burn/pump set at the end, drop the weight drop a bit and hit 20 reps.

Wayne
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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

2/2 or 1/3 is plenty fast for any of the multi-set protocols. The trick is to try and shorten your rest periods for the AF effct to manifest best.
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Bastion

Simon,
What is the AF effect?.
I'm assuming that lighter weights would be needed for 6x6 or 8x8 and that the first few sets would be easy then last 2-3 would be killer,as long as the rest between sets is kept to 30-60sec.That's pretty much how Stuart Mcrobert describes it.It might be a real blow to the ol ego to reduce the weight that much...lol.
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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

h.i.t.27 wrote:
Simon,
What is the AF effect?.
I'm assuming that lighter weights would be needed for 6x6 or 8x8 and that the first few sets would be easy then last 2-3 would be killer,as long as the rest between sets is kept to 30-60sec.That's pretty much how Stuart Mcrobert describes it.It might be a real blow to the ol ego to reduce the weight that much...lol.


I meant Accumulated Fatigue, when I guess it should have been Cumulative Fatigue or CF.

The weight drops can be a blow to the ego, especially when you estimate ahead of time that 10 lbs is enough of a drop and it winds up being 30.

Also, if you've been doing HIT very long, it's hard to hold back on the initial sets.

I've only tried 3x5 and 5x3 with the same weight. For 5x3, I could use my HIT 7RM or slightly higher. For 3x5, I had to drop the weight ~10% (90% of 7RM). I've done 5x5, but I did the pyramid version where the first 3 sets were a wind-up and the last 2 were done at a peak weight.

I imagine the poundage reduction I'd need for 6x6 or 8x8 with 30-sec rest periods would be pretty high. However, the devils advocate alternative is to ask yourself how much you'd need to drop the weight to perform one "widowmaker" set of 25-36 reps!

Scott
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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

Here's a T-Nation article by a guy with some interesting takes on bodybuilding:

http://www.T-Nation.com/...ilding_training


The relevant parts in his discussion are about leaving the "how much ya bench?" mentality outside the gym if you are a bodybuilder and training for feel, among other things.

He's got some good personal credentials too.
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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

Speaking of what weights to used for multi-set routines, here's a link to a cool 5x5 spreadsheet from Dave Draper's site:

http://www.davedraper.com/...ki/New5x5.1.xls

Go to the "Start-Up" worksheet to plug in your known poundages:
X lbs x Y reps (max)

Then, go to the "Week 1" worksheet to get an idea of what weight you'd use for 5x5 training.

Keep in mind, I believe those poundages reflect 5x5 for strength training (i.e. longer rest periods), but it can get you in the ballpark for your CF workouts.

Scott
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Bastion

Scott,
Thanks so much!.That's some great info!.I have been training Hit for years,so dropping the weights down and holding back will be a change.
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SanDiego

Every time I have switched to higher volume for a short period of time (as a break from HIT), my body reacts very favorably.

I'm of the opinion it has great value in a reasonably based routine.
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southbeach

SanDiego wrote:
Every time I have switched to higher volume for a short period of time (as a break from HIT), my body reacts very favorably.

I'm of the opinion it has great value in a reasonably based routine.


Do you do more different exercises or additional sets of same exercise?

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SanDiego

southbeach wrote:
SanDiego wrote:
Every time I have switched to higher volume for a short period of time (as a break from HIT), my body reacts very favorably.

I'm of the opinion it has great value in a reasonably based routine.

Do you do more different exercises or additional sets of same exercise?



I do additional sets of the same exercise. For example, I'll do full squats until I reach a pre-determined amount of total reps, i.e. 60 reps.

I love squatting, though.
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N@tural1

Instead of doin one failure set, perform a few sets but failing on the last is a good way to train.

1. You can can gain more sarcomere hyertophy due to the increased workload (provide theres enough tension)

2. Also sarcomere hypertrophy can be gained from more muscle fibre fatigue
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N@tural1

britlifter wrote:
Instead of doin one failure set, perform a few sets but failing on the last is a good way to train.

1. You can can gain more sarcomere hyertophy due to the increased workload (provide theres enough tension)

2. Also sarcomere hypertrophy can be gained from more muscle fibre fatigue


Number 2 I meant to say SARCOPLASMIC sorry.
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Waynes

Switzerland

A periodized 5 x 5 could go like this, 225x5 255x5 275x5 295x5 315x5.

Or like this,
Your top set is 100lbs
10% is 10lbs and 15% is 15lbs
Your 5th set is 100x5, 4th is 90x5, 3rd is 80x5, 2nd is 70x5, and 1st is 60x5

Time Between Sets:
Don't over think this. Use a natural rep speed, take what you need between sets. Don't be lazy but don't rush. You can't be doing rapid fire sets of big compound lifts. Maybe on the lightest warm-ups you take a minute but most sets will be 2-5 minute range with 2 being between fairly easy sets and 5 being after a heavy set in preparation for another very serious major effort that drains you.

I can see exceeding the 5 minute limit by a tad when really pushing near failure in the PR weeks when you are uncertain of getting your reps on your last set. Just use your brain and don't micromanage.

www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/

Wayne
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Waynes

Switzerland

simon-hecubus wrote:
h.i.t.27 wrote:
Simon,
What is the AF effect?.
I'm assuming that lighter weights would be needed for 6x6 or 8x8 and that the first few sets would be easy then last 2-3 would be killer,as long as the rest between sets is kept to 30-60sec.That's pretty much how Stuart Mcrobert describes it.It might be a real blow to the ol ego to reduce the weight that much...lol.

I meant Accumulated Fatigue, when I guess it should have been Cumulative Fatigue or CF.

The weight drops can be a blow to the ego, especially when you estimate ahead of time that 10 lbs is enough of a drop and it winds up being 30.

Also, if you've been doing HIT very long, it's hard to hold back on the initial sets.

I've only tried 3x5 and 5x3 with the same weight. For 5x3, I could use my HIT 7RM or slightly higher. For 3x5, I had to drop the weight ~10% (90% of 7RM). I've done 5x5, but I did the pyramid version where the first 3 sets were a wind-up and the last 2 were done at a peak weight.

I imagine the poundage reduction I'd need for 6x6 or 8x8 with 30-sec rest periods would be pretty high. However, the devils advocate alternative is to ask yourself how much you'd need to drop the weight to perform one "widowmaker" set of 25-36 reps!

Scott


But the last 2 sets will be higher that your 80%

Yes your tight it was hard to hold back and hard to drop the 2/4, but I did.

On my 30/15/10 I use roughly 65%, 75% and 83%

Wayne
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