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Why The Pullover Didn't Help Jones Lats?
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

==Scott==
Here's an excerpt from Steve Hits post from Jones.

----I now clearly understand just why my arms and legs benefited greatly while my torso muscles did not improve to a similar degree: my genetic potential for greater muscular size and strength in my arms and legs was far greater than it was in my torso muscles.

Just as Blacks usually find it impossible to build large calf muscles because of relatively poor genetic potential in those muscles, a point covered in an earlier chapter, I had a similar problem related to my torso muscles. But, not even suspecting the REAL problem, I set out to design and build exercise equipment that would bring my torso muscles up into proportion with my arm and leg muscles.-Arthur Jones --

==Scott==
What I'm seeing in this is that Jones built the pullover and other Nautilus back machines with the hopes that they would allow him to build up his back/lats in proportion to his arms when in fact they couldn't help him "much" because his lat genetics were vastly inferior to his arm genetics.

I recall many pictures of Jones fine arm development but none showing any significant development stemming from his pullover machine. It seems that that translates in to explaining why the pullover never turned into the upper body squat as he hoped it would.

The pullover he designed was a fine machine that did allow one to isolate the lats better than before but in the end no great strides were seem in lat development as a result of their use as compared to conventional machines or barbells.The grand claims of much bigger lats and torso's than ever before just never materialized because if you didn't have great lat genetics to begin with no machine was going to help you get great lats.
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Michael Petrella

Ontario, CAN

I have to disagree with you Scott.

I can't say one way or the other about Jones back. I have only ever seen 5-6 pictures of him displaying his muscularity and I don't know what years they were taken. The one where he performs the crab shot is the most impressive. Not sure if that was before or after Nautilus.

However I cannot build or maintain my maximum lat size without a Nautilus pullover. Everytime I move away from it, replace that movment with some sort of pulldown or even chins my lats are not as wide.

Compared to the MEDX pulldown, MEDX row or there Nautilus counterparts the Nautilus pullover performed properly creates a much larger oxygen debt in clients.

Also it is not by chance that Temple Gym (Dorian Yates place) Metrolflex (Ronnie Colemans gym of choice) and Westside barbell all have early Nautilus Pullovers.

How strong are you in the movement? I find the big issue is most people when they use a pullover, and the arms are taken out of the equation actually have fairly weak lats for how large a muscle it is. Alex Fee came into my gym and pulled 4 clean reps at 325 on the plate loaded pullover. Thats basically as much as I can get on the machine and his lats look every bit that strong. My fathers lats didn't start coming out till he was over 140 for reps on the plate loader.

There is a spectrum for genetic potential but in most cases it's a case of the lats not being that strong yet or diet. Not because you were born without the ability to grow your lats. I've seen pictures of you as a teenagers. You don't fit this category.


Michael
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larsvonthreat

that is an interesting quote scott.thank you.

i've already read it and what i would conclude of this,my first half century... and my personnal experience(obviously short but that's a start)is that isolation is useful only in a context of rehab or great imbalance in a chain of muscles.but if it is just the natural weak link(ie lowerback for squat,biceps for chins...)then be it.

i don't see much difference in my bicep development from doing curl(real single joint curl,not heavy standing bb)or just doing chins.

interestingly i do use the pre-exhaustion but only because there is not enough weight on a machine,or just to prevent the heaviest weights to be used and spare my joints.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

Michael Petrella wrote:
I have to disagree with you Scott.

I can't say one way or the other about Jones back. I have only ever seen 5-6 pictures of him displaying his muscularity and I don't know what years they were taken. The one where he performs the crab shot is the most impressive. Not sure if that was before or after Nautilus.

However I cannot build or maintain my maximum lat size without a Nautilus pullover. Everytime I move away from it, replace that movment with some sort of pulldown or even chins my lats are not as wide.

Compared to the MEDX pulldown, MEDX row or there Nautilus counterparts the Nautilus pullover performed properly creates a much larger oxygen debt in clients.

Also it is not by chance that Temple Gym (Dorian Yates place) Metrolflex (Ronnie Colemans gym of choice) and Westside barbell all have early Nautilus Pullovers.

How strong are you in the movement? I find the big issue is most people when they use a pullover, and the arms are taken out of the equation actually have fairly weak lats for how large a muscle it is. Alex Fee came into my gym and pulled 4 clean reps at 325 on the plate loaded pullover. Thats basically as much as I can get on the machine and his lats look every bit that strong. My fathers lats didn't start coming out till he was over 140 for reps on the plate loader.

There is a spectrum for genetic potential but in most cases it's a case of the lats not being that strong yet or diet. Not because you were born without the ability to grow your lats. I've seen pictures of you as a teenagers. You don't fit this category.


Michael


===Scott==
I think the point I was trying to make is that that is what Jones seems to be saying in his later years that even with his great pullover it didn't help his lats to get anywhere close to what he hoped they would and I think many of us think that if we somehow had access to a pullover our lats would finally react with great spurts of growth when in fact a pullover is a good machine but not at all the upper body squat Jones had hoped it would be.

Maybe I'm wrong as I wasn't there but I am feeling Jones eventually was dissapointed that he couldn't build his lats to where he wanted to even with a pullover because his lats just weren't as gifted as his arms? Same problem here I'm guessing.

Don't get me wrong,I love my pullovers ( I have 2) and my behind the necks as well but I also am beginning to believe that they are not going to give me anything chins or pulldowns wouldn't do for me with equal effort? I hope I'm wrong but it's hard to be positive after so long of seemingly no lat gains no matter what I do.I'm guessing Jones may have felt the same way??
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dipsrule

Pennsylvania, USA

Im my case the pullover is the upper-body squat. Everyone differs. I make better progress with the pullover ss/with the pulldown than just the pulldown alone. I cant always keep doing that superset, I need to change things up sometimes. The super-set hits just about every muscle of my torso. I agree that for alot that the chin or pulldown is all that one would do.
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dipsrule

Pennsylvania, USA

Im my case the pullover is the upper-body squat. Everyone differs. I make better progress with the pullover ss/with the pulldown than just the pulldown alone. I cant always keep doing that superset, I need to change things up sometimes. The super-set hits just about every muscle of my torso. I agree that for alot that the chin or pulldown is all that one would do.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

How strong are you in the movement? I find the big issue is most people when they use a pullover, and the arms are taken out of the equation actually have fairly weak lats for how large a muscle it is.

==Scott==
How strong am I at the movement, ha ha?? Ask Southbeach, he can tell you I'm weak as hell at back work. For a set of about 10--15 reps I use about 130 on my later model Super pullover. Maybe 140-150?? for 5 reps but I can't really remember ( Alzheimers , ha ha ) with out seeing my workout log and it's at home now. I'll check it when I get home. Pretty pathetic either way.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

==Scott==
keep talking, I need encouragement. It's nice to hear people actually say they do feel the pullover is an upper body squat for themselves!!
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dipsrule

Pennsylvania, USA

Sorry about the double post. I dont know how that happens. Anyway The pullover is my most strongest move. I can do it last with the pulldown before it. Ive done leg press,Ohp,pulldown,dip,pullover,last. Ive done routines doing deadlifts,partial high pull with the pullover last. My nautilus pullover has the small cam. This makes it easier than than bigger ones.I can do the whole stack with weight added. I do slow reps alot. I think this helps me use more weigth also. On the other hand for me pushing moves,like Dips,overhead press are not as good as any of my pulling moves. I feel the pullover hits my chest,triceps,lats,upper back enough to make up for the pushing exercises.Now If I dont do chins or pulldowns first or second behind the leg press they suffer on how much weight I can use. My biceps are the week link. If I do the pullover/pulldown superset,my biceps get hit hard enough due to they have to work hard. The pulldown is still hitting almost everything the pullover does. It seems I do better with the extra work. Pullover with just curls does not work better the just pulldowns for me. So as Jones may have got better results excluding the pullover, I get better results excluding curls,and pushdowns. I do whole body workouts where I just do pulldown as my only pulling exercise also. I find I cant do the superset all the time. Also I want to work on getting my weight up more on the pulldown.
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AI1963

I agree with Michael.

Nothing works my lats like a good pullover. I've tried several different Nautilus models, Hammer Strength's, Cybex's and am currently using MedX's offering.

When I first tried a pullover machine, I did not "get" it at all, thought it was an odd piece and almost a waste of time. Of course, my exercise form, intensity, frequency and volume all needed serious adjustment. Once those changes were made, I found it strange that I once discounted what I've come to regard as an invaluable training tool.

If I could only use one machine movement in my training, it would be the pullover.

Wish I had an old Nautilus plate loaded pullover. Arthur got more things right than wrong; the pullover is most definitely "right"!
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robinn3403

I have a Nautilus Time Machine plateloading pullover.
Fuhgetugboutit! One set on this son of a pup and I know EXACTLY where my Latisimus Dorsi are! Use the old 2 second postive/4 second negative with a 10 second static hold when I fail. Currently only using 110 pounds and got 8 reps last wk out. Should move up to 9 or 10 and then on to 115.
Have it in my garage and do it after I come home from gym.
I think that I do have good potential in my lats cause I have a good distinct flare on the front lat spread. Got a bit of fat to lose yet but can still get a good flex on the back. Can't flex fat so know there under there somewhere.
Now the upper arms..... that is diff story. Must find Compound position Biceps and the problems solved right? :)
Rob
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cmg

AI1963 wrote:
I agree with Michael.

Nothing works my lats like a good pullover. I've tried several different Nautilus models, Hammer Strength's, Cybex's and am currently using MedX's offering.

When I first tried a pullover machine, I did not "get" it at all, thought it was an odd piece and almost a waste of time. Of course, my exercise form, intensity, frequency and volume all needed serious adjustment. Once those changes were made, I found it strange that I once discounted what I've come to regard as an invaluable training tool.

If I could only use one machine movement in my training, it would be the pullover.

Wish I had an old Nautilus plate loaded pullover. Arthur got more things right than wrong; the pullover is most definitely "right"!



Question for you - How do you like the Medx pullover. I have access to one at my gym and no one uses it. I have a few times but do not like the sigle arm design and never really feel the movement - slow or fast movements. I go through a full range of motion also.

I get sore for about all muscles from almost all workouts - except from doing pullovers (MedX) and probably the MedX row. The row I figure because no real stretch (however did get sore from a hammer - plate loader).

Thanks,

Ron
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Michael Petrella

Ontario, CAN

cmg wrote:
AI1963 wrote:
I agree with Michael.

Nothing works my lats like a good pullover. I've tried several different Nautilus models, Hammer Strength's, Cybex's and am currently using MedX's offering.

When I first tried a pullover machine, I did not "get" it at all, thought it was an odd piece and almost a waste of time. Of course, my exercise form, intensity, frequency and volume all needed serious adjustment. Once those changes were made, I found it strange that I once discounted what I've come to regard as an invaluable training tool.

If I could only use one machine movement in my training, it would be the pullover.

Wish I had an old Nautilus plate loaded pullover. Arthur got more things right than wrong; the pullover is most definitely "right"!


Question for you - How do you like the Medx pullover. I have access to one at my gym and no one uses it. I have a few times but do not like the sigle arm design and never really feel the movement - slow or fast movements. I go through a full range of motion also.

I get sore for about all muscles from almost all workouts - except from doing pullovers (MedX) and probably the MedX row. The row I figure because no real stretch (however did get sore from a hammer - plate loader).

Thanks,

Ron


Give the MEDX a try for about a month.
It is a very odd piece at first. Most people including myself do not like the MEDX pullover the first time they use it. Remember there is a ton of adjustment on the machine as well.

However I was surprised not only with myself but my clients on how many of us really started enjoying it. I don't like it as much as the Nautilus but It is superior in a few different ways.

Like I said give it some time and some intense sets and report back in about a month with how you like it.

Michael
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

==Scott==
I don't doubt that the pullover is a great exercise if not the best exercise for the lats ever, I have both the plate loader and super pullover and I love them but I think the point I saw from Jones writings was that he hoped the machine would allow him to bring his lats up to the rest of his body and it didn't because of his inferior lat genetics compared to his arms.

His arms looked great but his lats looked non existent compared to his arms, just like mine do. Maybe someone has a picture of Jones with great lats to prove this contention of mine wrong??
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chasbari

Ohio, USA

The plateloading pullover is the only one that fit me well enough to work well. The superpullover was too big for my frame and getting the shoulder joint lined up was problematic as much for depth of torso from seat back as height adjustment. I have seen many people use the pullover with a very poor seat setting in order to use more weight through a limited range of motion thus negating the overall benefit and effectiveness of the machine.

I turned the exercise around and changed angles on my reverse crab pullover design to alleviate the working muscle being against a pad and have a very effective version as a result. Would have never contemplated moving in this direction.. or even building any of my machines, had it not been for the direct brilliance of AJ's design. I find that the orginal plateloading pullover, bicep and tricep were the best equipment. That's just my personal preference though.
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H.I.T. Believer

A training idea with the pullover:
Look at the ceiling in a 45 degree angle with the floor while you do it..my partner told me to try that and i couldnt believe how it trnasfered the burn to my lats-intense really.Only on the last rep or 2-and out of TOTAL necessity- do we allow our chin to drop down into our chest and the use of the arms as well....by this point the burning is so intense that the loosened form hurts every bit as much in the targeted muscles

Give it a try and see..

we also do superslow style on a series 3 low friction nautilus pullover with a conversion superslow cam..
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southbeach

Scott, you imply the NP was ineffective, nothing could be further from the truth. It's truly a revolutionary piece of equipment back then as it is even now. ONLY way to train DIRECTLY one of the largest muscle groups in the body. Direct training IS the MOST effective training hands down.
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anab0lic

Hmmm ,the super pullover isnt suited to people with narrow frames? I'm looking for a pullover right now and have a very narrow frame (ectomorph) so I'd be better trying to find a plateloaded one? Whats the actual name of the plateloaded model?
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Michael Petrella

Ontario, CAN

anab0lic wrote:
Hmmm ,the super pullover isnt suited to people with narrow frames? I'm looking for a pullover right now and have a very narrow frame (ectomorph) so I'd be better trying to find a plateloaded one? Whats the actual name of the plateloaded model?


I have owned or tried every pullover made under AJ with the excpetion of the leverage line pullover.

Both the plate loaded and selectorized first gen are more suited to a larger frame, wider shoulder person.

The second and third gen seemed to fit most averaged sized people better. Third gen was nice because it came with bearings instead of bushings. I still regret selling mine but had to when I got the MEDX.

I would say that the womens pullover may actually be a better fit for some men. Just take the badging off the side that says "womens" lol.
I always thought a womens pullover with a larger weight stack would work well for alot of males.

Michael

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AI1963

cmg wrote:
AI1963 wrote:
I agree with Michael.

Nothing works my lats like a good pullover. I've tried several different Nautilus models, Hammer Strength's, Cybex's and am currently using MedX's offering.

When I first tried a pullover machine, I did not "get" it at all, thought it was an odd piece and almost a waste of time. Of course, my exercise form, intensity, frequency and volume all needed serious adjustment. Once those changes were made, I found it strange that I once discounted what I've come to regard as an invaluable training tool.

If I could only use one machine movement in my training, it would be the pullover.

Wish I had an old Nautilus plate loaded pullover. Arthur got more things right than wrong; the pullover is most definitely "right"!


Question for you - How do you like the Medx pullover. I have access to one at my gym and no one uses it. I have a few times but do not like the sigle arm design and never really feel the movement - slow or fast movements. I go through a full range of motion also.

I get sore for about all muscles from almost all workouts - except from doing pullovers (MedX) and probably the MedX row. The row I figure because no real stretch (however did get sore from a hammer - plate loader).

Thanks,

Ron


Michael is right again - the MedX pullover is harder to get right than most others.

I, too, initially wished it had a fused movement arm but I've adjusted: both weight stacks typically touch down (GENTLY!) at very nearly the same instant at the stretch position of the exercise. At first I was not quite in sync.

I've found it difficult to maintain full upper arm contact with the pads when rotating until the fullest possible point of contraction. This is not due to rapid movements; I can assure you I am doing my reps in a slow, smooth manner. At any speed with any weight, the very last few degrees of movement cause an undesirable and distracting loss of full upper arm contact with the pads. After struggling with this for a few workouts, trying all sorts of changes to prevent this, I finally began terminating reps maybe a half inch from hitting the stoppers. I usually try for the fullest ROM in all exercises but, for me at least, the movement feels far better with this slight shortening of the ROM.

I suggest you keep tweaking adjustments until you find the sweet spot. I don't know that the MedX model is the best pullover I ever used but I do like it. I can produce a burn in my lats with this exercise, something that is very hard to do with "conventional" equipment.

Few people use this piece in my gym either. I've noticed that machines with multiple points of adjustment tend to discourage use. I trained at one gym that had that great MedX Avenger leg press - almost nobody touched it, probably for the reason mentioned. That thing ROCKED, wish my current gym had one.

Hope this helps.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

southbeach wrote:
Scott, you imply the NP was ineffective, nothing could be further from the truth. It's truly a revolutionary piece of equipment back then as it is even now. ONLY way to train DIRECTLY one of the largest muscle groups in the body. Direct training IS the MOST effective training hands down.


==Scott==
I'm not saying a pullover is ineffective. I don't know where you came up with that. What I'm saying for the 3rd time is that the pullover or behind the neck torso arm didn't help Jones build his lats like he hoped they would because he failed to take into account that his inferior lat genetics wouldn't allow them to come up to par with his arms, pullover or not. A problem I think I have as well. This is what I'm interpreting from what Jones said himself in Steve Hits article. If I recall correctly Jones originally made the pullover to help him build his lats and from what I can tell it didn't help him much.
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eintology

California, USA

entsminger wrote:
If I recall correctly Jones originally made the pullover to help him build his lats and from what I can tell it didn't help him much.


Maybe not, but did it provide him with the best shot at getting lats?

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entsminger

Virginia, USA

eintology wrote:
entsminger wrote:
If I recall correctly Jones originally made the pullover to help him build his lats and from what I can tell it didn't help him much.

Maybe not, but did it provide him with the best shot at getting lats?



==Scott==
I do think that the pullover and behind the neck would be the best exercises to use to get good lats but I think some of are just destined to have crappy lats no matter what we do. I also don't feel like the pullover comes close to being an upper body squat.Even though I don't like squats I'm open minded enough to know that they can stimulate growth through out the entire body. I don't see the pullover doing that. It's a great exercise but not at all what Jones had hoped and hyped it up to be.
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WesH

Scott,

You correctly interpreted Jones' remarks on his genetic deficiency with regard to his lats. Lucky for the rest of us that he didn't figure that out in 1960. My son has built a pretty good back thanks to the pullover.
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Lud

Michael Petrella wrote:
anab0lic wrote:
Hmmm ,the super pullover isnt suited to people with narrow frames? I'm looking for a pullover right now and have a very narrow frame (ectomorph) so I'd be better trying to find a plateloaded one? Whats the actual name of the plateloaded model?

I have owned or tried every pullover made under AJ with the excpetion of the leverage line pullover.

Both the plate loaded and selectorized first gen are more suited to a larger frame, wider shoulder person.

The second and third gen seemed to fit most averaged sized people better. Third gen was nice because it came with bearings instead of bushings. I still regret selling mine but had to when I got the MEDX.

I would say that the womens pullover may actually be a better fit for some men. Just take the badging off the side that says "womens" lol.
I always thought a womens pullover with a larger weight stack would work well for alot of males.

Michael



I've got a next generation that seems really narrow....I posted here a while back wondering if it was a women's version...what do you think?
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