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Vegan Bodybuilders - NY Times
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southbeach

garethit wrote:
southbeach wrote:
garethit wrote:
southbeach wrote:
garethit wrote:
southbeach wrote:

Greece: 61.6 + 60.3 = 121.9
USA: 25.4 + 80.5 = 105.9


http://www.worldlifeexpectancy...


From the above noted site I took their death rates (per 100,000)
from stroke and CHD and added them together. Here is what I got, stroke first, CHD second and the combined total of the two last.

So where does the story about good greek cardiovascular health originate? And, especially, the story about olive oil being responsible for the imagined benefit?

Try doing the same thing with as many other countries as you are willing to, look at data including average chol. rates and sat fat consumption in different countries, you'll be in for quite a shock.

greece has off the chart levels of stroke..is it the OO?

Japan used to have high rates of stroke as well, until they increased their sat fat intake that is. At the same time their chol. levels rose to and guess what? Their heart disease rates fell as well. Another "paradox" for you southey :-)


That's just not true. If you are suggesting sat fat protects against stroke you are sadly mistaken. It's a well known well documented risk factor. Stop reading the fringe "science" and the hacks.
99.9% of med docs and experts agree that sat fat is a sig risk factor for stroke and CVD.

http://jama.ama-assn.org/...8/24/2145.short

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...pubmed/12944100

I don't even know why I'm bothering to post these. No doubt you will refuse to except any evidence put before you that challenges your beliefs.

This stuff is not "fringe "science" and "99.9% of med docs" do not agree on this at all. Very low fat diets have repeatedly been shown to INCREASE the risk of stroke, a quick internet search will show many studies that back this up. No doubt as the resident expert on CV health you will debunk these studies.


The first study has since been discredited.

The 2nd is not really a clinical study at all but pure mechanistic speculation of IGF1 and stoke risk. Also easily disproven with lots of CLINICAL STUDY demonstrating low IGF1 in vegans and much lower risk of stroke also.

IOW, vegans do not get more stroke they get less as well as less CVD so the 2nd study is worthless. It's a joke
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garethit

southbeach wrote:
garethit wrote:
southbeach wrote:
This stuff is not "fringe "science" and "99.9% of med docs" do not agree on this at all. Very low fat diets have repeatedly been shown to INCREASE the risk of stroke, a quick internet search will show many studies that back this up. No doubt as the resident expert on CV health you will debunk these studies.

The first study has since been discredited.

The 2nd is not really a clinical study at all but pure mechanistic speculation of IGF1 and stoke risk. Also easily disproven with lots of CLINICAL STUDY demonstrating low IGF1 in vegans and much lower risk of stroke also.

IOW, vegans do not get more stroke they get less as well as less CVD so the 2nd study is worthless. It's a joke


Just as I thought! These are two out of many studies that show the same thing, sorry that this upsets you so much.

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southbeach

garethit wrote:
southbeach wrote:
garethit wrote:
southbeach wrote:
This stuff is not "fringe "science" and "99.9% of med docs" do not agree on this at all. Very low fat diets have repeatedly been shown to INCREASE the risk of stroke, a quick internet search will show many studies that back this up. No doubt as the resident expert on CV health you will debunk these studies.

The first study has since been discredited.

The 2nd is not really a clinical study at all but pure mechanistic speculation of IGF1 and stoke risk. Also easily disproven with lots of CLINICAL STUDY demonstrating low IGF1 in vegans and much lower risk of stroke also.

IOW, vegans do not get more stroke they get less as well as less CVD so the 2nd study is worthless. It's a joke

Just as I thought! These are two out of many studies that show the same thing, sorry that this upsets you so much.



lol. Sorry to disappoint but vegans (those that eat a nutritious plant-based diet) demonstrate LOWER risk from CVD and stroke. So, what are you trying to prove in light of that fact?
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garethit

southbeach wrote:
garethit wrote:
southbeach wrote:
garethit wrote:
southbeach wrote:
This stuff is not "fringe "science" and "99.9% of med docs" do not agree on this at all. Very low fat diets have repeatedly been shown to INCREASE the risk of stroke, a quick internet search will show many studies that back this up. No doubt as the resident expert on CV health you will debunk these studies.

The first study has since been discredited.

The 2nd is not really a clinical study at all but pure mechanistic speculation of IGF1 and stoke risk. Also easily disproven with lots of CLINICAL STUDY demonstrating low IGF1 in vegans and much lower risk of stroke also.

IOW, vegans do not get more stroke they get less as well as less CVD so the 2nd study is worthless. It's a joke

Just as I thought! These are two out of many studies that show the same thing, sorry that this upsets you so much.



lol. Sorry to disappoint but vegans (those that eat a nutritious plant-based diet) demonstrate LOWER risk from CVD and stroke. So, what are you trying to prove in light of that fact?


I thought we were discussing the risk of stroke specifically? My point was that epidemiologic studies have shown an inverse relationship between (sat)fat intake and stroke, if you disagree with this statement provide a link to a study that says otherwise. Unlike you I will read it with an open mind.
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southbeach

garethit wrote:
southbeach wrote:
garethit wrote:
southbeach wrote:
garethit wrote:
southbeach wrote:
This stuff is not "fringe "science" and "99.9% of med docs" do not agree on this at all. Very low fat diets have repeatedly been shown to INCREASE the risk of stroke, a quick internet search will show many studies that back this up. No doubt as the resident expert on CV health you will debunk these studies.

The first study has since been discredited.

The 2nd is not really a clinical study at all but pure mechanistic speculation of IGF1 and stoke risk. Also easily disproven with lots of CLINICAL STUDY demonstrating low IGF1 in vegans and much lower risk of stroke also.

IOW, vegans do not get more stroke they get less as well as less CVD so the 2nd study is worthless. It's a joke

Just as I thought! These are two out of many studies that show the same thing, sorry that this upsets you so much.



lol. Sorry to disappoint but vegans (those that eat a nutritious plant-based diet) demonstrate LOWER risk from CVD and stroke. So, what are you trying to prove in light of that fact?

I thought we were discussing the risk of stroke specifically? My point was that epidemiologic studies have shown an inverse relationship between (sat)fat intake and stroke, if you disagree with this statement provide a link to a study that says otherwise. Unlike you I will read it with an open mind.


I got lots of studies showing that..

but think about it for a minute..why would sat fat protect against stroke when it's shown to trash the CVS?
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southbeach

The two also report that berry fruits change the way neurons in the brain communicate. These changes in signaling can prevent inflammation in the brain that contribute to neuronal damage and improve both motor control and cognition

http://www.sciencedaily.com/...20307145825.htm

berry berry good food :)
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HeavyHitter32

No question berries are very beneficial and probably the best fruit. I've been using blue, black, and strawberries in my protein smoothies with walnuts and almonds.
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db144

If we put SB in a blender will the color of blended SB be green and will the mix be devoid of protein?

d
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douglis

southbeach wrote:
HeavyHitter32 wrote:
southbeach wrote:

Greece: 61.6 + 60.3 = 121.9
USA: 25.4 + 80.5 = 105.9


http://www.worldlifeexpectancy...


From the above noted site I took their death rates (per 100,000)
from stroke and CHD and added them together. Here is what I got, stroke first, CHD second and the combined total of the two last.

So where does the story about good greek cardiovascular health originate? And, especially, the story about olive oil being responsible for the imagined benefit?

I'm not going to do it yet again for you, but I pasted TONs and TONs of scientific research regarding the benefits of extra virgin olive oil for you a while back. It's also accepted by the American Heart Association and experts. However, you still continue to live in your vegan fantasy that all fat and protein is bad for you.

Yes I saw those and read them. But why doesn't it work in Greece?


It was working fine until a few decades ago.Today's average Greek nutrition is by far the worst in Europe.
If you also think that Greeks are the least exercised among Europeans and also first in smoking rates you might come to the conclusion that the olive oil is a life saver for them.
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southbeach

douglis wrote:
southbeach wrote:
HeavyHitter32 wrote:
southbeach wrote:

Greece: 61.6 + 60.3 = 121.9
USA: 25.4 + 80.5 = 105.9


http://www.worldlifeexpectancy...


From the above noted site I took their death rates (per 100,000)
from stroke and CHD and added them together. Here is what I got, stroke first, CHD second and the combined total of the two last.

So where does the story about good greek cardiovascular health originate? And, especially, the story about olive oil being responsible for the imagined benefit?

I'm not going to do it yet again for you, but I pasted TONs and TONs of scientific research regarding the benefits of extra virgin olive oil for you a while back. It's also accepted by the American Heart Association and experts. However, you still continue to live in your vegan fantasy that all fat and protein is bad for you.

Yes I saw those and read them. But why doesn't it work in Greece?

It was working fine until a few decades ago.Today's average Greek nutrition is by far the worst in Europe.
If you also think that Greeks are the least exercised among Europeans and also first in smoking rates you might come to the conclusion that the olive oil is a life saver for them.


what was working fine..a high plant food diet? NOW, with McDees on every corner even OO isn't saving anyone?

what are you suggesting?
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douglis

southbeach wrote:
what was working fine..a high plant food diet? NOW, with McDees on every corner even OO isn't saving anyone?

what are you suggesting?


The greek diet was never plant based.Until 20 years ago,when Greeks had a very high life expectancy and low heart disease rates,the greek diet was mostly fat based.
Sure plants had their place in the diet but by far the most calories were from fat.Olive oil was used in every food or salad but even large amounts of saturated fat were eaten every day(feta cheese,greek yogurt,etc and also lamb and pork was eaten very often).
So...a high fat diet was working fine.

Junk food and the absence of exercise destroyed the health of today's Greeks.Olive oil is the last of the remaining good habits.

BTW there're no McDees in every corner in Greece.We have others maybe even worse.

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southbeach

douglis wrote:
southbeach wrote:
what was working fine..a high plant food diet? NOW, with McDees on every corner even OO isn't saving anyone?

what are you suggesting?


So...a high fat diet was working fine.

Junk food



define "junk food"..junk food to ME is high in sat fat or processed carbs.


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douglis

southbeach wrote:
define "junk food"..junk food to ME is high in sat fat or processed carbs.



Junk food is too many of trans fat and processed carbs and sat fat.
The above order is not random.Fried potatoes(full of trans fat) are by far more harmful than a burger.

But even more harmful is the lack of exercise.



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HeavyHitter32

douglis wrote:
southbeach wrote:
define "junk food"..junk food to ME is high in sat fat or processed carbs.



Junk food is too many of trans fat and processed carbs and sat fat.
The above order is not random.Fried potatoes(full of trans fat) are by far more harmful than a burger.

But even more harmful is the lack of exercise.





Exercise is terms of aerobic or anaerobic?
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douglis

HeavyHitter32 wrote:
douglis wrote:

But even more harmful is the lack of exercise.


Exercise is terms of aerobic or anaerobic?


Both are needed for different reasons.
It's a big mistake to train only anaerobically and ignore your aerobic fitness.

Weight lifting stiffens the arteries.Strength trained athletes have much stiffer arteries than sedentary people.
Aerobic training has the opposite effect on arteries(increases arterial compliance) and somehow balances the stiffening effect of weight lifting.

Stretching is another way to increase arterial compliance.
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HeavyHitter32

Douglis,

I thought the stiffening of the arteries was only temporarily (during and shortly after) with strength training?

I agree though, you cannot neglect the aerobic aspect of exercise.
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Tony Williams

A poster on Daily Burn Tracker.com wrote this:

"March 2009 issue of FitnessRx, page 38. It references a study published in Journal Applied Physiology, 103: 1655-1661, 2007.

"It basically said that with heavy weight training, blood pressure reaches as high as 400mmHg causing a temporary stiffening of the arteries. Multiple bouts of weight training can potentially wear on the lining of the arteries and stress the heart. Cardio on the other hand makes vessels more compliant and enhances their health and function.

"Japanese researchers found that doing cardio after weight training compensated for the effects of weight training on blood vessel stiffness. Doing cardio before weight training had no protective effect."
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Tony Williams

J Hypertens. 2006 Sep;24(9):1753-9.
Resistance training and arterial compliance: keeping the benefits while minimizing the stiffening.
Kawano H, Tanaka H, Miyachi M.
SourceDivision of Health Promotion and Exercise, National Institute of Health and Nutrition, Tokyo, Japan.

Abstract
OBJECTIVES: This study aimed to determine the effects of moderate resistance training as well as the combined resistance and aerobic training intervention on carotid arterial compliance.

BACKGROUND: Resistance training has become a popular mode of exercise, but intense weight training is shown to stiffen carotid arteries.

METHODS: Thirty-nine young healthy men were assigned either to the moderate-intensity resistance training (MODE), the combined resistance training and endurance training (COMBO) or the sedentary control (CONTROL) groups. Participants in the training groups underwent three training sessions per week for 4 months followed by four additional months of detraining.

RESULTS: All training groups increased maximal strength in all the muscle groups tested (P < 0.05). Carotid arterial compliance (via simultaneous carotid ultrasound and applanation tonometry) decreased approximately 20% after MODE training (from 0.20 +/- 0.01 to 0.16 +/- 0.01 mm2/mmHg, P < 0.01). No significant changes in carotid arterial compliance were observed in the COMBO (0.20 +/- 0.01 to 0.23 +/- 0.01 mm2/mmHg) and CONTROL (0.20 +/- 0.01 to 0.20 +/- 0.01 mm2/mmHg) groups. Following the detraining period, carotid arterial compliance returned to the baseline level. Peripheral (femoral) artery compliance did not change in any groups.

CONCLUSIONS: We concluded that simultaneously performed aerobic exercise training could prevent the stiffening of carotid arteries caused by resistance training in young healthy men.

PMID: 16915024 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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southbeach

douglis wrote:
HeavyHitter32 wrote:
douglis wrote:

But even more harmful is the lack of exercise.


Exercise is terms of aerobic or anaerobic?

Both are needed for different reasons.
It's a big mistake to train only anaerobically and ignore your aerobic fitness.

Weight lifting stiffens the arteries.Strength trained athletes have much stiffer arteries than sedentary people.
Aerobic training has the opposite effect on arteries(increases arterial compliance) and somehow balances the stiffening effect of weight lifting.

Stretching is another way to increase arterial compliance.


Always windered if stretching helps AC but haven't seen any hard evidence. Have you seen any?

Tony, Good science!
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douglis

HeavyHitter32 wrote:
Douglis,

I thought the stiffening of the arteries was only temporarily (during and shortly after) with strength training?


It's found that strength trained athletes have significantly less arterial compliance than sedentary people so in longterm the effect must be permanent.
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douglis

southbeach wrote:

Always windered if stretching helps AC but haven't seen any hard evidence. Have you seen any?


Yes.

"Carotid artery compliance increased significantly (23%) following stretching which may be attributed to a reduction in carotid pulse pressure"
http://www.sld.cu/..._compliance.pdf

" These findings suggest that flexibility may be a predictor of arterial stiffening, independent of other components of fitness."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...pubmed/19666849
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HeavyHitter32

I too have wondered how stretching would be beneficial in this regard.

I also wonder how many minutes of aerobic after a weight training session would do the trick here?

Furthermore, I wonder if abbreviated training is less of an issue with artery stiffening vs higher volume training.
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db144

HH32:

Good questions. Let us ask our resident expert on all things diet and exercise related.

SB can you give us some answers?

d
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HeavyHitter32

douglis wrote:
HeavyHitter32 wrote:
Douglis,

I thought the stiffening of the arteries was only temporarily (during and shortly after) with strength training?


It's found that strength trained athletes have significantly less arterial compliance than sedentary people so in longterm the effect must be permanent.


Douglis,

How do you implement the two (aerobic and anaerobic)?
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douglis

HeavyHitter32 wrote:

Douglis,

How do you implement the two (aerobic and anaerobic)?


The last two months I tried to include 30 min of jogging after weight training but this ended up to be hard on my knees(I already had two knee operations).
Now I try to walk briskly for an hour 4-5 times a week.
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