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"Doing more exercise with less intensity,"
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Jones View on Tissue Building Drugs
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Tomislav

New York, USA

Jones View on the new Tissue Building Drugs


At 5'8 1/2 and over 200 lbs in his prime, Jones built a great deal of muscle naturally before they came out; later he espoused the perspective that they "did nothing for a person" which was recently pointed out as blatantly incorrect on another thread.

This thread is geared for discussion of this viewpoint with Brian and jn, and any athletes who find the perspectives discussed interesting.
---------------------------------

I think Jones made an excellent point and was speaking from what he observed. Athletes like jn who can build muscle with or without them are few and far between and superstars like Branch fewer still. Most athletes who utilize the tissue building drugs indeed seem to get nothing from them.

Here's a real world example of what typically happens:

Earlier this year a light athlete who had previously asked me what chemicals to take to get big and had been disappointed with my advice of just drinking a lot of cream and cod liver oil came to me for advice on taking Anadrol-50 which is arguably the most powerful of the tissue building drugs.

Since the athlete had wonderful expectation and could not be dissuaded, I explained he would still need to eat a lot of food and urged him to quarter the tablets (he halved them instead).

The athlete trained hard and indeed attempted to eat but had difficulty consistently changing his eating habits. Over several weeks he put on about 10 lbs and looked even leaner than when he started. He lost half when he discontinued the tissue building drugs despite taking supplements to restore endocrine function and then discouraged, stopped training for a spell and lost the other 5 lbs.

Jones was right again.
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Brian Johnston

Ontario, CAN

Post this on an actual steroid forum, where people use drugs, and let me know how many laugh and call you an idiot. Drugs that increase male hormone levels do nothing? Why are bodybuilders so much larger in the past 10-20 years? Ice cream and cod liver oil? lol
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FiremanBob

It seems to me that if the premise were true, natural bodybuilding champs would be the same size as the juicers today. Since they are not, I can't agree that it makes no difference.
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Tomislav

New York, USA

Brian Johnston wrote:
Post this on an actual steroid forum, where people use drugs, and let me know how many laugh and call you an idiot. Drugs that increase male hormone levels do nothing? Why are bodybuilders so much larger in the past 10-20 years? Ice cream and cod liver oil? lol


Brian,
you used Warren as an example; seems to me he knows how to get fat and turn it to muscle, but does so in a timeframe of months rather than years due to the assistance.

FiremanBob,
you've completely missed the point; most athletes could use a ton of chemicals and still never build as much muscle as a large natural athlete, let alone Warren.

IMO most athletes don't have the discipline or knowledge to build a lot of muscle either with or without chemicals and the real world scenario described above is very common; Brian is focused on a subculture of elite athletes and knowledgable trainers so it's a different story but Jones' generalities hold up well today.
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Brian Johnston

Ontario, CAN

Yes, he's so big, hard and shredded from getting fat for a few months every year. Not long ago you claimed that doing so did nothing and that a person had to stay fat for at least 2 years. Make up your mind, BS artist. Do you really believe your jibberish, or are you pulling legs? Did you post your thread on an actual steroid forum yet? Please... do so! Interested to hear the comments from actual users and experienced coaches and athletes.
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Tomislav

New York, USA

Brian Johnston wrote:
Yes, he's so big, hard and shredded from getting fat for a few months every year. Not long ago you claimed that doing so did nothing and that a person had to stay fat for at least 2 years. Make up your mind, BS artist. Do you really believe your jibberish, or are you pulling legs? Did you post your thread on an actual steroid forum yet? Please... do so! Interested to hear the comments from actual users and experienced coaches and athletes.

Brian,
I gave you a real world example and you can only keep pointing to superstar athletes as poster boys! Again, that's a very small subculture and not the norm by far; calculate the statistics and see for yourself.

btw, your suggestion is ridiculous - do you really imagine the athletes on your steroid forums all look like Warren or jn? Your perspective is so skewed it's like you've got a drop of water in the cup and see it as half full.
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Brian Johnston

Ontario, CAN

Some real-world example... some guy who 'talked' to... we have no idea what he did for training (how bad his training was), how receptive he was to the drugs, etc. ONE GUY who didn't keep any of the mass, according to you based on talking with him. I'm sold!

Have you gone on the steroid forum yet... get their stats?

You are dense! You initially claimed that steroid gains are based on water retention. I'm stating they are not (basic steroid physiology would tell you this). THIS IS WHAT THE ARGUMENT IS ABOUT! You are ignoring every argument dealing with this... as I give an example (and there are hundreds out there... just look at the photos) that suggest clearly that steroid gains are not based on water retention, but actual physiological and even DNA changes... this have been proven time and again if you bothered to even read.

What the people look like on the forums IS IRRELEVANT. Don't you get it? Ask them if their gains are all water based and that they lose everything after they go off. THAT WAS YOU POINT! My god, you don't even know what the frig you're arguing.

Again, I'm off your threads, because you are truly a manipulative dunderhead. Say one thing, then create different arguments on my arguments that I bring up SPECIFIC TO YOUR ORIGINAL ARGUMENT!
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Tomislav

New York, USA

Brian Johnston wrote:
Some real-world example... some guy who 'talked' to... we have no idea what he did for training (how bad his training was), how receptive he was to the drugs, etc. ONE GUY who didn't keep any of the mass, according to you based on talking with him. I'm sold!

Have you gone on the steroid forum yet... get their stats?

You are dense! You initially claimed that steroid gains are based on water retention. I'm stating they are not (basic steroid physiology would tell you this). THIS IS WHAT THE ARGUMENT IS ABOUT!

Really? I pointed out that the resulting water weight from an increase in estrogen levels and an increase in humours in the substrate are two factors that cause temporary size that is lost; many confuse this layer of water with muscle but it is transient. Is it that you can't tell the difference between this and real gains in muscle? I didn't argue against those only that they are uncommon for most athletes.

You are ignoring every argument dealing with this... as I give an example (and there are hundreds out there... just look at the photos) that suggest clearly that steroid gains are not based on water retention, but actual physiological and even DNA changes... this have been proven time and again if you bothered to even read.

What the people look like on the forums IS IRRELEVANT. Don't you get it?

It's certainly relevant; you've dismissed it because it further proves my point however the fact remains most athletes on steroids weather on forums or in the gym don't even look like they train with weights let alone take steroids.

Ask them if their gains are all water based and that they lose everything after they go off. THAT WAS YOU POINT! My god, you don't even know what the frig you're arguing.

Calm down with the drama already; my argument is clear - you just have no logical counter and this upsets you.

Again, I'm off your threads, because you are truly a manipulative dunderhead. Say one thing, then create different arguments on my arguments that I bring up SPECIFIC TO YOUR ORIGINAL ARGUMENT!


The specific argument is this: Jones' generalities are clearly borne out to anyone observing athletes in the gym; your subculture clique is the exception, not the rule.
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AShortt

Ontario, CAN

It is nothing less than astounding that in 2012 anyone could be this naive about steroids.
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Tony Williams

The AMA once said steroids did not work.

Years ago, the same organization also claimed cigarettes were harmless and might even be beneficial.

Tony
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gmlongo

Connecticut, USA

AShortt wrote:
It is nothing less than astounding that in 2012 anyone could be this naive about steroids.


Each time he posts, I think that it's impossible for him to be more clueless, yet here we are again...
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Tomislav

New York, USA

gmlongo wrote:
AShortt wrote:
It is nothing less than astounding that in 2012 anyone could be this naive about steroids.

Each time he posts, I think that it's impossible for him to be more clueless, yet here we are again...


gm,
which is it, do you suppose?

a. Steroids do nothing for most folk (Jones).

b. You guys would all look like Warren or jn if only you juiced (Brian).

;)

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Brian Johnston

Ontario, CAN

gmlongo wrote:
AShortt wrote:
It is nothing less than astounding that in 2012 anyone could be this naive about steroids.

Each time he posts, I think that it's impossible for him to be more clueless, yet here we are again...


Not only that,but there are drugs out there to counter the effect of an increase in estrogen (which will occur ONLY IF enough anabolic steroids are taken... enough to cause your own production to decrease to a critical point). Not only that... now the moron is suggesting that everyone would look like Warren IF steroids worked, lol.

Yes, let's ignore genetics to get large, receptor site sensitivity, and the amount of drugs he's taking. None of that has anything to do with whether or not anabolic steroids are effective. This guy must live in a cave and has not been to gyms where guys take drugs.

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backtrack

Some anti-steroid campaigners think that the best way to prevent people using them is saying that they dont do anything. From a business point of view it would be stupid for any manufacturer of exercise machines to say steroids are effective it would undermine their business.

In the real world, if someone is using steroids (having done their homework), they will be receptive to their effects, both positive and negative. Both effects, are unique to the individual. Some users say drug x causes them little if no side effects, for others it causes them so many side effects they have to cease using the drug. Its very much a trial and error ritual, as much like exercise, there is dosage to consider, frequency, and what is stacked with what.

The biggest wrong doing here, if true, is someone going to a non-steroid user? asking for advice on how much of a certain pill to take. Its like going to a resturant and asking some guy whose never been in the resturant before how much to eat, and what to eat. It's non sensicle.
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Mega-duty

I have seen certain bodybuilders training with and without steroids,difference was like night and day.
Many natural bodybuilder train much more efficient manner and are half of the size of those who use steroids.
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backtrack

The good thing for the 'natural trainee' is that many steroid users not as strong as they appear. And for some reason the guys who I know on steroids are obsessed with the bench press so have nothing to show but a bulbous chest.
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HeavyHitter32

Mega-duty wrote:
I have seen certain bodybuilders training with and without steroids,difference was like night and day.
Many natural bodybuilder train much more efficient manner and are half of the size of those who use steroids.


Agreed.
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JimBryan

Florida, USA

On the subject of Steroids, I believe Arthur was wrong about them not working. But, Arthur was saying this in the 70's. We never talked about them later, so I don't know if his opinion changed, Ell may know. Not everyone reacts the same way using them, they unlock potential. They can be dangerous.
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Tomislav

New York, USA

Dan_The_man wrote:
The biggest wrong doing here, if true, is someone going to a non-steroid user? asking for advice on how much of a certain pill to take. Its like going to a resturant and asking some guy whose never been in the resturant before how much to eat, and what to eat. It's non sensicle.


Dan,
I disagree; if someone told me they were going to a restaurant and planned to order six meals to eat I would tell them to be sensible and order two and that's only if they were already advanced and aspiring to take it to the next level :)

The scenario I described where a light athlete seeks advice from a heavily muscled athlete in the gym is quite common and I'll stand by my advice and subsequent observations that they are almost invariably better off drinking milk and cream and seeking training consistency with the heavy iron than pursing what is almost guaranteed to be a worthless shortcut that builds nothing for lack of the former; both Randy's tall tales and Brian's subculture biased enthusiasm are examples of building these athletes up for disappointment and not mass.

Brian,
posting pictures of Warren as proof is misleading; you train and work with elite athletes but their results are not typical.

The scenario I described is common and and as a heavily muscled athlete you must have experienced it numerous times; what advice do you give?



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garethit

Steroids do work and they work damn well. I can tell you from my experience of knowing many steroid users personally that some of the gains can be maintained permanently and at a higher level than would have been reached naturally. This is not open for debate, it's a fact of which there are many examples.

I could point you right now to a website and give you the name of a member who has done just this. The guy was a competitive bodybuilder at national level in the UK. He no longer takes any PED's of any kind yet still maintains a degree of mass you won't see on a natty. Of course he is smaller than when using but by his own admittance is bigger than he would ever have achieved naturally.

I could also introduce you to a friend of mine who has also done the same thing. The guy is around 8-9% BF, benches 140kg for his working sets and has 18in arms. He does have great genetics but the point is he would never ever have reached this point without first getting huge through steroid use then coming off and losing a bit.
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Tomislav

New York, USA

Brian Johnston wrote:
Yes, let's ignore genetics to get large, receptor site sensitivity, and the amount of drugs he's taking. None of that has anything to do with whether or not anabolic steroids are effective. This guy must live in a cave and has not been to gyms where guys take drugs.


Brian,
speaking of caves have you ever read Plato's story? It's like you see shadows on the wall and come up with tales of the fantastic to explain what's casting them.

You aspire to build monster athletes like Warren but have difficulty taking the natural athletes like Andrew beyond 150 lbs:

I think you should stop being obsessed with steroids and try teaching your athletes to eat like Warren and then maybe they'll get somewhere because the reality is he's an eating machine.

Warren can eat two steaks and a pizza in a single bite and follow it with a bottle of olive oil and a gallon of milk and that's just between meals. It's not hyperbole, if you could follow him around for a day you might understand but instead you've got this anorexic fantasy that he's eating salads and skinless chickenbreasts while downing 200 calorie RTD's. The chemicals help him turn the fat to muscle in months instead of the years it would take a natural athlete like Randall.

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Brian Johnston

Ontario, CAN

Steroids don't work... anyone with larger than usual muscles while taking the drugs are only that big because they eat huge and gain 30 pounds of fat and stay like that for 2-3 years. LOL.

You're so focused on steroids increasing water retention (due to estrogen)... and yet you recommend drinking dairy products WHICH INCREASE ESTROGEN LEVELS. Maybe whatever muscle you THINK you gained is nothing more than water retention due to higher estrogen levels! Oh, I forgot, you can climb a rope.

Now, YOU take off those rose-colored glasses and go visit gyms with actual steroid using trainees.

And you are WRONG AGAIN (what's new?) about my trainees or people I know being unusual examples. These are everyday people taking drugs... some have better potential, while others do not. But they cross over a large spectrum of the population. Regardless, you wil ignore what I just said and barf up something else idiotic.
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Brian Johnston

Ontario, CAN

Dear ignoramous BS artist... I don't train Andrew... and you have no idea who I've trained and where I've taken them.

Nor am I obsessed with steroids, but correcting your incorrect thinking about them; why do you STRETCH the truth and people's comments just to satisfy your ignorance? Stop making stuff up.

First you claim steroids don't work... that they merely increase water content... then you clearly state "the chemicals help turn fat to muscle." Interesting... how steroids convert fat tissue into muscle tissue... what's the physiological process of this? How does this work, since there isn't a single scientific example of steroids doing this.

You aspire to build monster athletes like Warren but have difficulty taking the natural athletes like Andrew beyond 150 lbs:

I think you should stop being obsessed with steroids and try teaching your athletes to eat like Warren and then maybe they'll get somewhere because the reality is he's an eating machine.

Warren can eat two steaks and a pizza in a single bite and follow it with a bottle of olive oil and a gallon of milk and that's just between meals. It's not hyperbole, if you could follow him around for a day you might understand but instead you've got this anorexic fantasy that he's eating salads and skinless chickenbreasts while downing 200 calorie RTD's. The chemicals help him turn the fat to muscle in months instead of the years it would take a natural athlete like Randall.



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FiremanBob

Wow, I thought this was a good faith discussion, but it turned out to be just another troll. Not going to waste any more time in this thread.
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Brian Johnston

Ontario, CAN

Please provide a link to where Branch Warren claims drinking a bottle of olive oil each day.
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