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too old

Just a thought, but have you tried jumping into the chin up? Then slow lowering negatives?
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Crotalus

Ray200 wrote:
I wrote about my chinning in an earlier thread.
Cheers,
Ray


Yes you did and I should have remembered as there aren't too many guys knocking out multiple sets of 10 in pull ups and you told me about 'ladders'.

I can't believe how well that method of grouping reps works and I only take about three or four deep breaths between groups.

But I do 'cheat' on the way I do them , LOL I will do the first set of ten like you explained as 1/2/3/4 . But after a minute rest I do the second group in reverse as 4/3/2/1.

With pull ups I still haven't completed that last one of the second set but it's the first time I've been abe to complete 19 reps in pull ups in two sets.

'Ladders' is a great method to thanks again for the advice.
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StuKE

I have tried ladders in the also other versions of grease the groove. All worked, when knocking out well below failure sets throughout the day, when I had a day's rest or so, a to failure high rep set was very succesful. But, even sticking well below failure, daily chins / pull ups does take it's toll eventually. Not necessarily leading to injury, maybe just tiredness, when you know you need to have a break from them.

As for the multiple sets of 10, that is beyond me. I might get 2-3 sets at a push (pull) but no way would I get 5.
If I hit near 20 on the first set, the second will be a hard 8 probably.

I always found heavy, very low rep sets allowed me to then take off all the weight, have a rest for 2 mins and then get 20 or so, feeling light as a feather. That was back then though, doesn't work so much now hahaha!
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StuKE

I think the thing to remember with chins and pull ups, no matter how many reps you can or can't do, is that... they are hard! A difficult exercise where right from the start, your breathing is compromised, it can be uncomfortable, you have to pull your whole body up. I sometimes wonder what the national average would be for adults. I think it would probably be between 0 to 3. I have seen many people attempt them, only to fail at one.
Therefore, in my eyes, any amount of reps is worthy and respectable and something to be proud of.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

too old wrote:
Just a thought, but have you tried jumping into the chin up? Then slow lowering negatives?


===Scott==.
If you are asking me that is like what I do. First I try about 3 chins only going about half way, then I climb a small ladder to get my chin up to the bar and slowly lower for about 4 reps or until I just literally drop down. About 2 or 3 sets of those. My lats get sore after those. Twice a week .
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

on. Chins are such a fundamental part of training I wonder why you avoided them? For me, my back was always easy to train. Perhaps that's why my rowing and chinning are so far ahead of my pressing: the n.

==Scott==
I honestly don?t remember why I avoided them. I do recall my grip being weak and not being able to hang long ? That?s why I loved Nautilus, it took the grip out of the equation. There was this wrestler who could do 25 behind the neck chins and I envied him as at the time I was lucky to do one behind the neck chin but he had a huge upper body and legs like a polio victim so maybe I avoided them out of frustration , I just sucked at them and didn?t think I could ever get any good at them or maybe it was because I was the kind of guy ( and still am) that if everyone was doing it , I was going to do something else. Same for bench. All everyone wanted to do then was bench so I did different chest stuff. I do wish now that I had taken chins more seriously though.
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Ray200

Crotalus wrote:
Ray200 wrote:
I wrote about my chinning in an earlier thread.
Cheers,
Ray

Yes you did and I should have remembered as there aren't too many guys knocking out multiple sets of 10 in pull ups and you told me about 'ladders'.

I can't believe how well that method of grouping reps works and I only take about three or four deep breaths between groups.

But I do 'cheat' on the way I do them , LOL I will do the first set of ten like you explained as 1/2/3/4 . But after a minute rest I do the second group in reverse as 4/3/2/1.

With pull ups I still haven't completed that last one of the second set but it's the first time I've been abe to complete 19 reps in pull ups in two sets.

'Ladders' is a great method to thanks again for the advice.


It does go against HIT to train like this so I was hesitant to recommend them. Having seen how "restrictive" sites like Hardgainer or HI.net became I should thank Dr D. for allowing this kind of discussion.
I liked doing Ladders with a training partner. However, I did see on Clarence Bass's site that PT warns you to be careful as the competitive nature of trying to beat him or her might lead to burn out. But when you look at the sheer volume you can fit in over such a short period it's a fun way of doing chins (never thought I'd say that) with amazing results.
PT says 20 reps should be easy enough. Now that's something to go for. I think I did 2x15 after finishing a cycle of them but have no idea of my weight at the time.
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Ray200

StuKE wrote:
I think the thing to remember with chins and pull ups, no matter how many reps you can or can't do, is that... they are hard! A difficult exercise where right from the start, your breathing is compromised, it can be uncomfortable, you have to pull your whole body up. I sometimes wonder what the national average would be for adults. I think it would probably be between 0 to 3. I have seen many people attempt them, only to fail at one.
Therefore, in my eyes, any amount of reps is worthy and respectable and something to be proud of.


Re this and your last post: I tried daily chinning and lasted a week. I think I was following a Chad Waterbury routine. One wrist was painful and the elbow wasn't much better. That's what forced me to use Olympic rings. No great muscle building advantage that I'm aware of, just easier on the joints.
Chins are excruciating: that last rep! Only squats and deadlifts come close. Here in the UK (I think you're from the UK too?), with obesity on the rise, I wonder if even 3 would be the average?
I've actually tried, seeing the thread is about Ronnie Coleman, to find some clips of him chinning but can't find any. At that weight though ... I did see a vid some years ago but it was all partials. I think Dorian Yates wrote that he had to do lat pulldown due to his weight. Having mentioned Bioforce before I do recall him saying he could beat Dorian on pulldowns, albeit he got buried in the other exercises.
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Crotalus

StuKE wrote:
If I hit near 20 on the first set, the second will be a hard 8 probably.


More good advice from lots of experience ... thanks.

LOL, if I'm ever able to do 20 reps in a set of pull ups I will cut up my gym card and resign myself to eating pizza and ice cream the rest of my life !
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StuKE

I am no expert, but I have had a great interest in chin ups / pull ups since my teens.
I have spoken via email to world record holders and have corresponded with a climbing legend for years - who was known for his 1000 reps in a day workouts... Bear in mind climbers are usually very light, but still!
I believe British Wrrdtler, Bert Assirati could do 3 one arm reos at 240 poundd in the 1930s!
I am sure many large bodybuilders can do chins, but woulf probably be better with pulldowns, allowing more reps and isolation of the lats.
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StuKE

Ray200 wrote:
StuKE wrote:
I think the thing to remember with chins and pull ups, no matter how many reps you can or can't do, is that... they are hard! A difficult exercise where right from the start, your breathing is compromised, it can be uncomfortable, you have to pull your whole body up. I sometimes wonder what the national average would be for adults. I think it would probably be between 0 to 3. I have seen many people attempt them, only to fail at one.
Therefore, in my eyes, any amount of reps is worthy and respectable and something to be proud of.

Re this and your last post: I tried daily chinning and lasted a week. I think I was following a Chad Waterbury routine. One wrist was painful and the elbow wasn't much better. That's what forced me to use Olympic rings. No great muscle building advantage that I'm aware of, just easier on the joints.
Chins are excruciating: that last rep! Only squats and deadlifts come close. Here in the UK (I think you're from the UK too?), with obesity on the rise, I wonder if even 3 would be the average?
I've actually tried, seeing the thread is about Ronnie Coleman, to find some clips of him chinning but can't find any. At that weight though ... I did see a vid some years ago but it was all partials. I think Dorian Yates wrote that he had to do lat pulldown due to his weight. Having mentioned Bioforce before I do recall him saying he could beat Dorian on pulldowns, albeit he got buried in the other exercises.


Yes, I am from the UK.
I made some makeshift parallel handles and vary mu grip, but these days. I find palms faving suits my joints best, I kind of twist my hands inwards a little, puttin more weight on inner hand and little finger etc. This alloes a slightly more natural feel which suits my joints.
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Ray200

entsminger wrote:
on. Chins are such a fundamental part of training I wonder why you avoided them? For me, my back was always easy to train. Perhaps that's why my rowing and chinning are so far ahead of my pressing: the n.

==Scott==
I honestly don?t remember why I avoided them. I do recall my grip being weak and not being able to hang long ? That?s why I loved Nautilus, it took the grip out of the equation. There was this wrestler who could do 25 behind the neck chins and I envied him as at the time I was lucky to do one behind the neck chin but he had a huge upper body and legs like a polio victim so maybe I avoided them out of frustration , I just sucked at them and didn?t think I could ever get any good at them or maybe it was because I was the kind of guy ( and still am) that if everyone was doing it , I was going to do something else. Same for bench. All everyone wanted to do then was bench so I did different chest stuff. I do wish now that I had taken chins more seriously though.


Nautilus of course has an incredible history with negatives but I assume you'd tried these? It might be worthwhile buying some bands and doing supported chins, gradually decreasing the assistance over time. This seems to be a more popular method of working your way up as opposed to doing pulldowns.
As for avoiding them, do you think it might be because of the Nautilus influences such as the pullover and pulldown? Would these have come to the fore when you were in high school?
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Crotalus

Another good piece of advice I followed for pull ups which worked was from a YT clip with Jeff Cavalier.

He said you'll get a couple more reps right away if you keep your body perfectly straight , not bending the knees, at the waist, etc. ... almost in gymnastic form. It worked and I always do that now.

Yeah, 15 years ago or so if someone told me anything that wasn't following the HIT protocol to the letter, I'd cover my ears and close my eyes ...

And, yes it is great that Darden allows these discussions. LOL, I was banned in a couple days when I found the Hard Gainer site for questioning something.
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StuKE

Crotalus wrote:
Another good piece of advice I followed for pull ups which worked was from a YT clip with Jeff Cavalier.

He said you'll get a couple more reps right away if you keep your body perfectly straight , not bending the knees, at the waist, etc. ... almost in gymnastic form. It worked and I always do that now.

Yeah, 15 years ago or so if someone told me anything that wasn't following the HIT protocol to the letter, I'd cover my ears and close my eyes ...

And, yes it is great that Darden allows these discussions. LOL, I was banned in a couple days when I found the Hard Gainer site for questioning something.



I like Jeff Cavalier's videos. Wonder why it works? I don't think I quite have the leg room to do it in my chinning frame.
I woild love to build a frame outside, used fo have some great sessions at my friends, seights on the garage, chins outside, all weafhers including avery cold and snowy Boxing Day once. I believe many would improve their fep count by training outside. I can't back that uo woth any evidence, just from personal experience and a hunch that the fresh air and sunlight probably put you in a begter frame of mind. Then again. This is the north of England, not much sun at thw moment.

Agree about Dr Darden, it is very good of him to allow the conversation to veer off HIT sometimes, tje site is bstter for it, allows some good discussion.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

Ray200 wrote:
entsminger wrote:
on. Chins are such a fundamental part of training I wonder why you avoided them? For me, my back was always easy to train. Perhaps that's why my rowing and chinning are so far ahead of my pressing: the n.

==Scott==
I honestly don?t remember why I avoided them. I do recall my grip being weak and not being able to hang long ? That?s why I loved Nautilus, it took the grip out of the equation. There was this wrestler who could do 25 behind the neck chins and I envied him as at the time I was lucky to do one behind the neck chin but he had a huge upper body and legs like a polio victim so maybe I avoided them out of frustration , I just sucked at them and didn?t think I could ever get any good at them or maybe it was because I was the kind of guy ( and still am) that if everyone was doing it , I was going to do something else. Same for bench. All everyone wanted to do then was bench so I did different chest stuff. I do wish now that I had taken chins more seriously though.

Nautilus of course has an incredible history with negatives but I assume you'd tried these? It might be worthwhile buying some bands and doing supported chins, gradually decreasing the assistance over time. This seems to be a more popular method of working your way up as opposed to doing pulldowns.
As for avoiding them, do you think it might be because of the Nautilus influences such as the pullover and pulldown? Would these have come to the fore when you were in high school?


==Scott==
Here?s how crazy I am. When I was about 17 I was going to the patent office to get the Nautilus pullover patent so I could make one. I got the patent plans and it was so basic it didn?t help with building one . Then I got an old jungle gym and scrap metal and tried to build one ( I loved welding even then) but couldn?t do it . Then I went to Deland with foolish hopes that they would sell me the plan. They just laughed! Eventually Nautilus came near me at Spartan Gym off Branch ave in MD and I got a month or so gym membership. That?s where I met Mentzer and I just happened to be working out there when he did. I worked out very intensely and I think he liked working with me at times because no one else worked so intense . In those days it seemed most people just went through the motions.
When I think back no one else I knew in school ever heard of Jones or Nautilus. I remember going to this grit weight room gym where Big oafs just threw around weight. I recall standing there doing light weight side laterals but I did them very strict with a bust ass effort. Most people then weren?t used to the high intensity effort look and when I did a set people would turn and look like I was some kind of nut. That?s guys gonna explode!
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StuKE

entsminger wrote:
Ray200 wrote:
entsminger wrote:
on. Chins are such a fundamental part of training I wonder why you avoided them? For me, my back was always easy to train. Perhaps that's why my rowing and chinning are so far ahead of my pressing: the n.

==Scott==
I honestly don?t remember why I avoided them. I do recall my grip being weak and not being able to hang long ? That?s why I loved Nautilus, it took the grip out of the equation. There was this wrestler who could do 25 behind the neck chins and I envied him as at the time I was lucky to do one behind the neck chin but he had a huge upper body and legs like a polio victim so maybe I avoided them out of frustration , I just sucked at them and didn?t think I could ever get any good at them or maybe it was because I was the kind of guy ( and still am) that if everyone was doing it , I was going to do something else. Same for bench. All everyone wanted to do then was bench so I did different chest stuff. I do wish now that I had taken chins more seriously though.

Nautilus of course has an incredible history with negatives but I assume you'd tried these? It might be worthwhile buying some bands and doing supported chins, gradually decreasing the assistance over time. This seems to be a more popular method of working your way up as opposed to doing pulldowns.
As for avoiding them, do you think it might be because of the Nautilus influences such as the pullover and pulldown? Would these have come to the fore when you were in high school?


==Scott==
Here?s how crazy I am. When I was about 17 I was going to the patent office to get the Nautilus pullover patent so I could make one. I got the patent plans and it was so basic it didn?t help with building one . Then I got an old jungle gym and scrap metal and tried to build one ( I loved welding even then) but couldn?t do it . Then I went to Deland with foolish hopes that they would sell me the plan. They just laughed! Eventually Nautilus came near me at Spartan Gym off Branch ave in MD and I got a month or so gym membership. That?s where I met Mentzer and I just happened to be working out there when he did. I worked out very intensely and I think he liked working with me at times because no one else worked so intense . In those days it seemed most people just went through the motions.
When I think back no one else I knew in school ever heard of Jones or Nautilus. I remember going to this grit weight room gym where Big oafs just threw around weight. I recall standing there doing light weight side laterals but I did them very strict with a bust ass effort. Most people then weren?t used to the high intensity effort look and when I did a set people would turn and look like I was some kind of nut. That?s guys gonna explode!


Good story. Of course, sincw then gyms have really taken off, they are everywhere here in the UK, but I doubt the majority work any harder than they did back then...
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Average Al

StuKE wrote:
Just noticed the addition of this documentary to Netflix, I believe it is called Ronnie Coleman, The King.
Only watched half of it so far, but it is very interesting, particularly as it covers a lot of Ronnie's severe injuries. Quite sad how he is now, seems like a nice guy.


I watched it last night. It was interesting. And it is sad to see someone that used to be incredibly strong now having to shuffle around with crutches.

Jay Cutler made a comment about his not training smart. I wonder how much physique he would have had to sacrifice if he had taken a more back friendly approach? Or maybe he was just cursed from the start with a structurally unsound lower back?

I was also struck by the elephant in the room that was not mentioned once: drugs. If you just watched that documentary, you would think that these physiques were solely the product of good genetics and hard work. I'm sure the omission was quite intentional by the producer.
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sirloin

Watched it last night, I dont feel sad or sorry for him one bit, he did what he did through his OWN choosing, feel sorry or sad those in the same situation through no fault or choice of the own.

To his credit, he has no regrets or self pity, thats how it should be, theres a risk factor with every endeavour.

Everyone (on the net), seems to be under the impression that his back issues happened because of doing 800lb squats and deadlift doubles but he said it himself, it took him decades of lifting to build up to those numbers.
Imo, its these surgeries that have made things much worse, the very reason why I turned down spinal surgery a few years ago.
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Crotalus

Drugs can't be that bad .... look at the Rolling Stones, LOL.

Nobody used more drugs , alcohol and tobacco , ate bad diets, had nasty habits and rotten life styles then they did and they're now planning another world tour ... and they're in their mid 70's if not older !!!

People should ask them what they're doing ! LOL

So go go have a slice of pizza and a beer tonight without feeling guilty. And don't skimp on Thanksgiving dinner either.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

Crotalus wrote:
Drugs can't be that bad .... look at the Rolling Stones, LOL.

Nobody used more drugs , alcohol and tobacco , ate bad diets, had nasty habits and rotten life styles then they did and they're now planning another world tour ... and they're in their mid 70's if not older !!!

People should ask them what they're doing ! LOL

So go go have a slice of pizza and a beer tonight without feeling guilty. And don't skimp on Thanksgiving dinner either.


== Scott==
I went through many years of eating nothing but health food and at some point I came to believe it really wasn?t that advantageous to my health , especially my sense of well being. I don?t drink or smoke but I?ve come to eat pretty much what I want to and frankly I don?t feel any different than when I was the health nut . I do eat pretty healthy but when I want some junk I go for it .
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Crotalus

entsminger wrote:

I went through many years of eating nothing but health food


Other than some training mistakes here and there, the only regrets of mine in this BB hobby was taking the whole thing so serious to where I'd miss out on things like cook outs and holiday dinners. Not that I'd avoid them, but just acting like I was going to lose the Mr.Universe contest because I ate a piece of pie or avoided the egg nog ... like a day or two off the usual bland diet would make a difference.

Later I'd feel just as guilty not because I didn't have the yummy food but how it probably seemed like I didn't appreciate all the trouble and work my family and friends went through preparing everything.





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StuKE

Crotalus wrote:
entsminger wrote:

I went through many years of eating nothing but health food

Other than some training mistakes here and there, the only regrets of mine in this BB hobby was taking the whole thing so serious to where I'd miss out on things like cook outs and holiday dinners. Not that I'd avoid them, but just acting like I was going to lose the Mr.Universe contest because I ate a piece of pie or avoided the egg nog ... like a day or two off the usual bland diet would make a difference.

Later I'd feel just as guilty not because I didn't have the yummy food but how it probably seemed like I didn't appreciate all the trouble and work my family and friends went through preparing everything.







I know what you mean. Back then I ate healthier, for me what was pregty much a waste of time was all the force feeding. I would feel nloated, nauseous and tired somegome from all that food. It cost me too and what differen e did it really make in the end? Not much. I was scared of missing feeds so missed oit on some things.one fhing I will say, it made me realise that just because you may need a lot of protein / calories to build muscle, doesn't mean it isn't harming your digestive system.

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Crotalus

I actually eat leaner and stick to my eating plan these days better than I did all those years ago ... and without trying so hard. I'm lucky that I like what I eat so it's not a problem for me eating pretty much the same thing everyday.

The cashiers at the market I go to say they can ring me up as soon as the see me walk in the door, usually buying the same items every time.

And because I eat this way 98% of the time I no longer feel guilty of going off my 'diet' when my employer sends me home with a giant plate of lasagna and garlic bread or her incredible Mexican casserole. I'll eat the whole thing and lick the plates like a dog.

In Landau's You Tube presentation on Jones he said it best when he said not to avoid some junk things you really like, just don't eat too much of it.

That really goes way back to Gironda. As strict as he was about everything, he even felt sticking to a diet without deviating here and there wasn't the best way to go about it.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

==Scott==
During my heavy training days I remember being on a long road trip with some friends and when they stopped to get something to eat at some cheap restaurant I went over to the grocery store and bought some cottage cheese and some fruit and sat in the car eating that while they went in to restaurant. I never forgot how dumb that was.
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