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"Doing more exercise with less intensity,"
Arthur Jones believes, "has all but
destroyed the actual great value
of weight training. Something
must be done . . . and quickly."
The New Bodybuilding for
Old-School Results supplies
MUCH of that "something."

 

This is one of 93 photos of Andy McCutcheon that are used in The New High-Intensity Training to illustrate the recommended exercises.

To find out more about McCutcheon and his training, click here.

 

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'Functional Training and HIT'
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Landau

Florida, USA

Average Al wrote:
Ellington Darden wrote:
Average Al wrote:
Bill Sekerak wrote:
Landau wrote:
Functional Training being used for ANYTHING is just Plain Stupid

The voice of reason strikes again. Thank you David for that .

So you and David prefer non-functional training? Can you give me an example?

I like the term "indifferent" applied to training. Non-functional training could be labeled indifferent training. In other words, when the activities of practice are unrelated to what happens in competition.

For example, a set of slow, negative-only chins and dips would make your torso and arms bigger and stronger. And doing so would make you a faster swinger of a bat in baseball. Thus, your hitting ability in baseball would improve.

Ellington


Thanks for the reply, but I wasn't really posing a serious question.


My point is that equating "functional training" to "silly bull shit" is great fun, but not particularly insightful or useful, especially since the opposite of functional training is non-functional training, and who wants to waste time on training that doesn't improve function.

At this point,"functional training" is just a vague marketing term that has no clear meaning, so arguments about its value are likely to go around in circles.




OK - The Popular Prostitution of "Functional Training" falls completely under the Realm of Specificity, which then renders it Worse than Useless. Does that help you?

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sgb2112

I have come around to the belief that athleticism is trainable to a greater degree than most think and that the training model of simply adding size and strength in a non sport specific manner is not the best way.

https://youtu.be/W-Dk05MfCMg
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1958

Texas, USA

Specificity!
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Landau

Florida, USA

sgb2112 wrote:
I have come around to the belief that athleticism is trainable to a greater degree than most think and that the training model of simply adding size and strength in a non sport specific manner is not the best way.

https://youtu.be/...05MfCMg


The Belief with that Moronic YouTube "video" is just plain Pathetic and Sports Specfic means Sports Specific - Not Sports Almost or Sports Mimic - Seriously - does anyone ever use their own Critical Thinking?
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sgb2112

1958 wrote:
Specificity!


Not a bad tool except for the tool riding it. This would be more sport-specific though..no helmet required.


https://youtu.be/aEYf-EyUqCM

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hit4me

Florida, USA

sgb2112 wrote:
I have come around to the belief that athleticism is trainable to a greater degree than most think and that the training model of simply adding size and strength in a non sport specific manner is not the best way.

https://youtu.be/...05MfCMg


these are athletes that are training 8 hours a day under supervision of a coach and dietician.....not the general public who works 10-12 hours a day and raising 3 kids and can only hope for 30 minutes a day to workout
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

sgb2112 wrote:
1958 wrote:
Specificity!

Not a bad tool except for the tool riding it. This would be more sport-specific though..no helmet required.


https://youtu.be/aEYf-EyUqCM



==Scott==
Years ago I tried such an apparatus, extremely boring !!Maybe if you are in prison but if you can get on the road why sit in a stationary position? You get bored out of your mind.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

OK - The Popular Prostitution of "Functional Training" falls completely under the Realm of Specificity, which then renders it Worse than Useless. Does that help you?

==Scott==
That clears everything up!! ha ha.
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Resultsbased

This is functional training for the brain as everything seems to be in code...perhaps dysfunctional
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Bill De Simone

New Jersey, USA

Posted on the HITuni website, from an actual user of the course:

"As always, I enjoy Bill's writings and may well benefit by actually avoiding future injuries to myself and to my clients. This alone, obviously is worth far more than the price of this course. For this reason, it is a bargain I can easily recommend. However, I was left with less than a clear understanding as to why certain things would be applied that do involve quick movements and subjecting self or clients to higher forces in the process. To Bill's credit, the author does state that these are optional, and someone might state that my perspective is limited by "hit dogma".

I do appreciate that certain muscle groups may well best be exercised statically. I also appreciate that while "hit dogma" may state that the last rep is the safest, because you typically are not strong enough at that point to exert force that would hurt you, however I can see why that in fact may not be the safest rep, if you lose your posture at that point to get deep inroad, potentially resulting in acute or chronic injuries. Redefining failure as the point at which one can not maintain ideal posture, may seem to lower intensity, but as Bill points out, you may in fact be working the actual targeted muscles more effectively, and likely doing so without putting as much strain on your ability to recover. This makes perfect sense to me, and is another distinction made from this course, that again, is worth more than the cost. Thanks Bill and Simon for making available."
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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

Bill De Simone wrote:
Posted on the HITuni website, from an actual user of the course:

"As always, I enjoy Bill's writings and may well benefit by actually avoiding future injuries to myself and to my clients. This alone, obviously is worth far more than the price of this course. For this reason, it is a bargain I can easily recommend. However, I was left with less than a clear understanding as to why certain things would be applied that do involve quick movements and subjecting self or clients to higher forces in the process. To Bill's credit, the author does state that these are optional, and someone might state that my perspective is limited by "hit dogma".

I do appreciate that certain muscle groups may well best be exercised statically. I also appreciate that while "hit dogma" may state that the last rep is the safest, because you typically are not strong enough at that point to exert force that would hurt you, however I can see why that in fact may not be the safest rep, if you lose your posture at that point to get deep inroad, potentially resulting in acute or chronic injuries. Redefining failure as the point at which one can not maintain ideal posture, may seem to lower intensity, but as Bill points out, you may in fact be working the actual targeted muscles more effectively, and likely doing so without putting as much strain on your ability to recover. This makes perfect sense to me, and is another distinction made from this course, that again, is worth more than the cost. Thanks Bill and Simon for making available."


The last rep may the most dangerous if one strains against the resistance without the proper breathing techniques. Cranial BP could spike to frightening levels.
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hit4me

Florida, USA

simon-hecubus wrote:
Bill De Simone wrote:
Posted on the HITuni website, from an actual user of the course:

"As always, I enjoy Bill's writings and may well benefit by actually avoiding future injuries to myself and to my clients. This alone, obviously is worth far more than the price of this course. For this reason, it is a bargain I can easily recommend. However, I was left with less than a clear understanding as to why certain things would be applied that do involve quick movements and subjecting self or clients to higher forces in the process. To Bill's credit, the author does state that these are optional, and someone might state that my perspective is limited by "hit dogma".

I do appreciate that certain muscle groups may well best be exercised statically. I also appreciate that while "hit dogma" may state that the last rep is the safest, because you typically are not strong enough at that point to exert force that would hurt you, however I can see why that in fact may not be the safest rep, if you lose your posture at that point to get deep inroad, potentially resulting in acute or chronic injuries. Redefining failure as the point at which one can not maintain ideal posture, may seem to lower intensity, but as Bill points out, you may in fact be working the actual targeted muscles more effectively, and likely doing so without putting as much strain on your ability to recover. This makes perfect sense to me, and is another distinction made from this course, that again, is worth more than the cost. Thanks Bill and Simon for making available."

The last rep may the most dangerous if one strains against the resistance without the proper breathing techniques. Cranial BP could spike to frightening levels.


so, is there any difference if you are straining to perform a deadlift or squat and its not the last rep?
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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

hit4me wrote:
so, is there any difference if you are straining to perform a deadlift or squat and its not the last rep?


Maybe a little, simply becuase the BP will gradually rise more as a tough set progresses.
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tensionstrength

All this and the comment that followed really are appreciated. Really makes me think.
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Landau

Florida, USA

Bill De Simone wrote:
Posted on the HITuni website, from an actual user of the course:

"As always, I enjoy Bill's writings and may well benefit by actually avoiding future injuries to myself and to my clients. This alone, obviously is worth far more than the price of this course. For this reason, it is a bargain I can easily recommend. However, I was left with less than a clear understanding as to why certain things would be applied that do involve quick movements and subjecting self or clients to higher forces in the process. To Bill's credit, the author does state that these are optional, and someone might state that my perspective is limited by "hit dogma".

I do appreciate that certain muscle groups may well best be exercised statically. I also appreciate that while "hit dogma" may state that the last rep is the safest, because you typically are not strong enough at that point to exert force that would hurt you, however I can see why that in fact may not be the safest rep, if you lose your posture at that point to get deep inroad, potentially resulting in acute or chronic injuries. Redefining failure as the point at which one can not maintain ideal posture, may seem to lower intensity, but as Bill points out, you may in fact be working the actual targeted muscles more effectively, and likely doing so without putting as much strain on your ability to recover. This makes perfect sense to me, and is another distinction made from this course, that again, is worth more than the cost. Thanks Bill and Simon for making available."


"Train to Failure" should be Changed to Train to Succeed. Individual Differences must be Understood - You must observe this aspect like a Hawk when you are Training each and every Person. My 2 Favorite Phrases I use to convey advice is "Know When to Say When" (Trainee) and "No Rules, Just Right!" Perfect Form (whatever that is supposed to mean) basically brings in a Skill and just may not optimize potential benefits - These are some off the Cuff thoughts.......
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Nwlifter

One thing that bugs me, I've read where some say these two things, that are contradictory...

* The first rep is the most dangerous since your fresh and strong it's easier to injure yourself

* The first reps serve as a warm up for the later reps of the set.

Wait... huh? how can the most dangerous rep also be the warmup .. s warm up for the "less dangerous" later reps?.. what?..

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too old

I think because the first few reps are supposed to be done more slowly and with less force.
I believe the last rep could be the most dangerous. Not only because of possible form breakdown, but the possibility of joint,tendon, ligament injury due to the stress. (stress on these supporting structures).
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pharaoh1063

Nwlifter wrote:
One thing that bugs me, I've read where some say these two things, that are contradictory...

* The first rep is the most dangerous since your fresh and strong it's easier to injure yourself

* The first reps serve as a warm up for the later reps of the set.

Wait... huh? how can the most dangerous rep also be the warmup .. s warm up for the "less dangerous" later reps?.. what?..



That's why those first reps are recommended to be slow. It fits. The first reps are the most dangerous, so we slow them down artificially, if necessary. But this also, corresponds to the fact that the Type 2 fibers are not engaged yet. So with only low-growth Type 1 fibers firing and little hope of getting the Type 2's, there's no need to go faster.

If you'll remember Jones literature, by the time the first slow reps are done, you are instructed to speed up a little, nothing too crazy, but most criticism of our methods forget this. By the time the Type 2's kick in you are instructed to moving at a pace that is as fast as you can possibly go, which in the end, is not really that fast.

So, all reps are dangerous, but the first ones are more so and we slow them. The last reps are dangerous too, but not as much. And with the first ones converted into safe warm-ups, the last ones are correspondingly safer.

At least that's my take on it.
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tensionstrength

Landau wrote:


Perfect Form (whatever that is supposed to mean) basically brings in a Skill and just may not optimize potential benefits - These are some off the Cuff thoughts.......


I think I see what you mean here. This is the kind of stuff that really makes me think. Could you expound on this please? Or maybe there is no expounding.
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AndyMitch

too old wrote:
I think because the first few reps are supposed to be done more slowly and with less force.
I believe the last rep could be the most dangerous. Not only because of possible form breakdown, but the possibility of joint,tendon, ligament injury due to the stress. (stress on these supporting structures).


What Arthur Was (I think) trying to tell us was to make each rep a carbon copy of the next, move at a cadence which eliminates momentum.

First rep being dangerous in the sense of fresh strength pushing the weight faster than necessary.

Last rep (if all previous reps are in accordance with what?s right) is safest because you are unable to provoke damage to ligaments and tendons.

Bulletin?s one and two lay it all out read them it all one needs.

First time I picked up these was 25 years ago and I still re-read them and (lol) I still think ( so that?s what you meant) Arthur Jones? Love him.
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Landau

Florida, USA

tensionstrength wrote:
Landau wrote:


Perfect Form (whatever that is supposed to mean) basically brings in a Skill and just may not optimize potential benefits - These are some off the Cuff thoughts.......

I think I see what you mean here. This is the kind of stuff that really makes me think. Could you expound on this please? Or maybe there is no expounding.


When form becomes the objective over the primary objective - stimulus, then you lose the effect - I mean, perfect form looks Great, but you have to take a step back and think. Example: a 1 -1 cadence may appear to be wrong - but in some cases it looks near perfect. Bottom Line is, don't think about Speed of Movement at all, just bring the weight home so to speak and know when to say when. Don't be imprisioned by rep speed or sets, try and find the dosage of exercise that is right for you.
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HeavyHitter32

Landau wrote:

When form becomes the objective over the primary objective - stimulus, then you lose the effect - I mean, perfect form looks Great, but you have to take a step back and think. Example: a 1 -1 cadence may appear to be wrong - but in some cases it looks near perfect. Bottom Line is, don't think about Speed of Movement at all, just bring the weight home so to speak and know when to say when. Don't be imprisioned by rep speed or sets, try and find the dosage of exercise that is right for you.


This should be a sticky somewhere. 100% true.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

"Train to Failure" should be Changed to Train to Succeed. Individual Differences must be Understood - You must observe this aspect like a Hawk when you are Training each and every Person. My 2 Favorite Phrases I use to convey advice is "Know When to Say When" (Trainee) and "No Rules, Just Right!" Perfect Form (whatever that is supposed to mean) basically brings in a Skill and just may not optimize potential benefits - These are some off the Cuff thought

=== Scott===
I think Bill has great advice especially for those of us concerned with longevity and preserving our joints but then again obsessing to much on perfect form etc can at times get in the way of results and here is an example of this. Bill demonstrates how to safely and efficiently shovel snow in one of his videos. You leverage the shovel off the hip etc instead of scooping and twisting and throwing the snow over the shoulder as most do it. It makes total sense and is very safe but in reality if one tried to shovel out his driveway that way it would take forever. There just are times that everything you do isn?t going to be done the safest way possible. When your shoveling snow there generally is an urgency to get it done so you cheat some but with working out there generally isn?t any compelling reason to cheat so I think most of his ideas are valid when it comes to exercise.
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tensionstrength

Landau wrote:
tensionstrength wrote:
Landau wrote:


Perfect Form (whatever that is supposed to mean) basically brings in a Skill and just may not optimize potential benefits - These are some off the Cuff thoughts.......

I think I see what you mean here. This is the kind of stuff that really makes me think. Could you expound on this please? Or maybe there is no expounding.

When form becomes the objective over the primary objective - stimulus, then you lose the effect - I mean, perfect form looks Great, but you have to take a step back and think. Example: a 1 -1 cadence may appear to be wrong - but in some cases it looks near perfect. Bottom Line is, don't think about Speed of Movement at all, just bring the weight home so to speak and know when to say when. Don't be imprisioned by rep speed or sets, try and find the dosage of exercise that is right for you.


Thank you very much for going into more detail. Very motivating indeed!
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

=== Scott===
Bill, can we get off this worthless fuss over what is and what isn?t functional training and get back to something more relevant like are chins with the palms facing away incongruent or in my terms not a functionally good way to do chins compared to palms facing your head and if so why? Which palm position works the lats best? I would think since Jones made his pulldown bar so the palms face each other than that must be the best way to do pulldowns or chins?
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