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Dr. Darden: Static Contractions
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tensionstrength

I don't have an answer to your question. I noticed you posted something about this earlier in this thread. I am not knocking statics but usually find myself asking similar questions. I full like with full range controlled reps I am getting more thorough stimulation or maybe the better way of wording it is more complete stimulation. I haven't read all of the content on Ken's new site. I will say what I have read is very thought provoking and interesting at least to me. Even if I don't necessarily do super slow or a lot of pure statics.
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MikaelPR

I talked to Ken Hutchins a while back while he was working at his late brother's facility in TX , and he told me the same thing, that most of the people he was training were using timed static contraction exclusively. When I asked about the need for machines that provide feedback, he said he wasn't sure if feedback is such a good idea, that men in particular couldn't apply TSC correctly if they were trying to "beat the machine ". So, I guess Ken would say you don't need his expensive equipment to train using this method. I think he would say you DO need expensive machines to get the best results from training dynamically, and I agree.
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Average Al

Crotalus wrote:

But most people aren't training very hard either.

IMO, the two biggest problems resulting in poor results ( by results I mean I'm talking strength and muscle ) are .....

1) not working hard enough

2) rotten form

One more problem I'd say with a lot of people would be consistency.


Those are certainly factors in many cases. But even among people who train hard and train consistently, using similar methods, there can be a wide range of outcomes.

As for genetics: Ask yourself why top football programs put so much effort into recruiting? Why not just take walk-ons, and turn them into elite performers with a good training program? You could save a lot of time, effort, and scholarship money....








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ATP 4 Vitality

Dr. Darden's report on Ken Hutchin's static contraction may be very startling. This may be as BIG as SuperSlow was in the original BIG book in 1990.

Some interesting things highlighted from Ken Hutchins:

"What makes her progress more impressive to appreciate is that her current performances on static Leg Press are always preceded with static hip ADduction and immediately preceded with static hip ABduction for pre-exhaustion purposes (the Leg Press Triad)."

"Now note the shoulder shrug exercise. Although neck exercise as traditionally afforded with equipment by Nautilus (Arthur Jones) and SuperSlow Systems (yours truly) has largely been exercises to flex or to extend the neck, TSC shoulder shrug is the all-round best and safest approach. It addresses the entire neck musculature. It's impossible to ascertain, but the subject above is performing TSC shoulder shrug in his most contracted position (greatest shoulder girdle elevation). It avoids almost all spinal compression. This is superior for one of my subjects, as it is the only way to strengthen his neck and circumvent his irritation with the hardware in his 78-year-old neck."

----------------


Now I must admit, I have never liked the "sissy" abductor or adductor exercises for the hips/thighs. I also know the "boys" from HIT "English style" have trounced pre-exhaustion techniques lately. So being the contrarian that I am, I had to do some static hip abduction on my Nautilus leverage leg press and then immediately do static leg press. This is a killer... and will leave one wobbling if taken to fatigue.


For several years I've done static neck extension/flexion with monster blue resistance bands. This will make necks very large. I've never done any static shoulder shrugs but I may start with my Nautilus leverage shrug/row machine. I will find out if shrugs are a "one stop shop" for the neck muscles. I love static face pulls... which are great for the rear delts and exercise the whole shoulder area very well. I would try anything to lessen spinal compression in the neck/thoracic area, as I have a history of neck trauma. Of course everyone knows isometrics don't work.
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Mostly Dead

Average Al,

I respectfully disagree. If one is training/being trained properly, meaning proper form, enough intensity, proper diet, and proper rest, I have yet to see someone that doesn't slim down and his/her muscles become more defined/hard/solid when viewed or touched.

I'm not saying there are no exceptions,however, that being said, the vast majority of trainees do not have this "no visible results" issue and I believe I can say that is fact.

MD
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

, but the subject above is performing TSC shoulder shrug in his most contracted position (greatest shoulder girdle elevation).

==Scott==
Ok once again I'm not getting this picture of a guy that looks like hes doing a one arm chin but doing a shoulder shrug?
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

Mostly Dead wrote:
Hit4me,

I guess we differ on what is "successful" when discussing weight training and being popular is not proof of results.

I'm results driven and when I look at the average SuperSlow, X Force, or RenEx trainee, I'm hard pressed to notice any results (please don't don't post the exceptions as proof in response. I remember Trentine posting pictures of himself as proof of the RenEx concept).

The results I've seen remind me of the level of fitness I see from those training at a Planet Fitness, LA Fitness, etc.

What I find most interesting is Ken H. is constantly involved in these wildly hyped, revolutionary machines and training concepts even though his results have been barely average for all his "experience".

MD


==Scott==
I don?t know of any system or machine group that has a bunch of stand out individuals that got showable results solely using those machines . Sure , Jones trained Viator on Nautilus but it?s as much of Jones training/ pushing that got results as the machines. Maybe X-Force might ?
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Average Al

Mostly Dead wrote:
Average Al,

I respectfully disagree. If one is training/being trained properly, meaning proper form, enough intensity, proper diet, and proper rest, I have yet to see someone that doesn't slim down and his/her muscles become more defined/hard/solid when viewed or touched.

I'm not saying there are no exceptions,however, that being said, the vast majority of trainees do not have this "no visible results" issue and I believe I can say that is fact.

MD


I never said that most people can't make improvements in strength and appearance. I'm pushing back against the idea that if someone doesn't have an "exceptional" or "notable" physique, they aren't training properly, or don't know what they are doing. The only way to establish that is to have that individual train differently, and see if that individual gets dramatically better.

Exceptional, of course, is very subjective. To me, losing some weight, getting leaner, having muscles that are harder, stronger, and more visible doesn't necessarily mean that you have an exceptional physique. Maybe I'm reading too much into your earlier comments. Or maybe my idea of what is exceptional is a lot different than yours.

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entsminger

Virginia, USA

One more problem I'd say with a lot of people would be consistency. A lot just can't be as consistent with their training as necessary to get the best results as they have other priorities. Not anyone's fault, it's just the way it is.

You have to train hard and be consistent with it.

==Scott==
I think consistency is the biggest problem, at least for me.Once you're in the gym how hard is it to kick ass. You love to workout so why be there if you're gonna loaf.You get in the grove for a few weeks or so of great workouts and then something comes along and gets in the way of your workouts for a week or so and then you are pretty much starting over again. This seems to repeat much to often.I think keeping workouts consistent is just as important if not more than what you do. It's guys like Turpin who constantly keep at it who are the successful ones. Being very organized and regimented is very important to sticking to things.To be honest I'm not very good at either of those.
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Resultsbased

Why perform shrugs on the leverage machine? Hutchins condemns this practice.

All that's required is sitting and shrugging your shoulders with no "external resistance" and staging it along with virtually all other muscle groups and exercises.

It will be interesting to see how many people actually "buy" into this.

What was the saying by PT Barnum?
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Crotalus

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the term 'static contraction' or at least how Mr. Hutchin's suggests it be used.

I'm thinking he means pushing against a something not moving ... but maybe I'm wrong.
If this is what he's talking about ... without any other movement , I think it's ridiculous . Maybe I'm thinking 'isometrics' instead of 'static contraction ?

If he's talking about holding the contracted position in a non-lockout position like you would have with calf raises, shrugs, lateral raise, pec deck , etc. with each rep, I'd agree this is great thing do. This definitely increases the intensity of the exercise.

I often hold the contracted position for 2-3 count .... and also hold the stretched position the same way before starting another rep.

But I don't think it's what he's talking about or is it ??? Someone set me straight on this .

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StuKE

I believe static contractions or as I will call them here, isometrics can have a lot of value. I incorporate them in my workouts quite ofte, in fact I built or enhanced a few contraptions to allow me to use isometrics better.
They have been around for a long, long time and although I don't want to stop using normal exercises, I really like the isometrics. There are a ton of ways to use them and you can hit a muscle with maximum intensity from ANY angle. I don't need fancy equipment and I incoroorate all sorts of everyday objects. I can do trap bar deadlifta or shrugs and then focus on any point of the motion with the equivalent of a very heavy weight.

I got a lot of info from a free Steve Justa biok I found online. He is not everyone's cup of tea but makes a lot of sense.

One important point is fhat you can work around a joint, strenghening it from every angle.

I have also tried calisthenics and self resistance and whilst thwy have some merits, I still believ ideally you need the weights and a decent range of motion ideally.
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ATP 4 Vitality

entsminger wrote:
, but the subject above is performing TSC shoulder shrug in his most contracted position (greatest shoulder girdle elevation).

==Scott==
Ok once again I'm not getting this picture of a guy that looks like hes doing a one arm chin but doing a shoulder shrug?


The shrug picture is in one of ken Hutchins articles.

Spend less time being the site custodian and more time reading which may lead to better understanding of posts.
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Average Al

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
entsminger wrote:
, but the subject above is performing TSC shoulder shrug in his most contracted position (greatest shoulder girdle elevation).

==Scott==
Ok once again I'm not getting this picture of a guy that looks like hes doing a one arm chin but doing a shoulder shrug?

The shrug picture is in one of ken Hutchins articles.

Spend less time being the site custodian and more time reading which may lead to better understanding of posts.


To be fair, the picture that goes with the text you posted about shrugs does not appear in your post. That picture shows a guy doing a shrug in a conventional way, just no resistance.

I'm not sure what the point was of the picture you posted, because it doesn't seem to relate to any of the exercises you describe in your post. That is the source of the confusion.

For Scott: go to Hutchins latest web site, Serious Exercise, and look at the article under "Positions for TSC"
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ATP 4 Vitality

Resultsbased wrote:
I'll ask again, how on Earth does static training alone remotely coincide with HIT when there is no negative work?


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...pubmed/29282529

Eccentric actions cause microscopic tears and this results in inflammation. Perhaps this is counterproductive. Many Olympic lifters avoid eccentrics and obtain much muscle mass. Perhaps the case for eccentrics has been overstated. Certain types of isometrics/statics do have eccentric actions.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
entsminger wrote:
, but the subject above is performing TSC shoulder shrug in his most contracted position (greatest shoulder girdle elevation).

==Scott==
Ok once again I'm not getting this picture of a guy that looks like hes doing a one arm chin but doing a shoulder shrug?

The shrug picture is in one of ken Hutchins articles.

Spend less time being the site custodian and more time reading which may lead to better understanding of posts.


=== Scott ==
I simply can?t figure out what the guy in the picture is doing and what it has to do with shrugs? You seem more concerned with being the custodian than I do with your nagging me and others about what is said here and there like some old woman.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

Average Al wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
entsminger wrote:
, but the subject above is performing TSC shoulder shrug in his most contracted position (greatest shoulder girdle elevation).

==Scott==
Ok once again I'm not getting this picture of a guy that looks like hes doing a one arm chin but doing a shoulder shrug?

The shrug picture is in one of ken Hutchins articles.

Spend less time being the site custodian and more time reading which may lead to better understanding of posts.

To be fair, the picture that goes with the text you posted about shrugs does not appear in your post. That picture shows a guy doing a shrug in a conventional way, just no resistance.

I'm not sure what the point was of the picture you posted, because it doesn't seem to relate to any of the exercises you describe in your post. That is the source of the confusion.

For Scott: go to Hutchins latest web site, Serious Exercise, and look at the article under "Positions for TSC"


== Scott ===
Thanks Average Al, I was beginning to think I was losing my mind?? At this point I?m so sick of this attitude on here like Turbin Heads that I just don?t care enough to look it up.
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ATP 4 Vitality

Average Al wrote:

For Scott: go to Hutchins latest web site, Serious Exercise, and look at the article under "Positions for TSC"


Just for Scott,

1-arm shrugs with the other arm anchored allows full range of motion for the upper trapezius muscle. At the top position (static) one should turn their head slightly away from the shrug motion which is a natural full contraction of this muscle.
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Resultsbased

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Resultsbased wrote:
I'll ask again, how on Earth does static training alone remotely coincide with HIT when there is no negative work?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...pubmed/29282529

Eccentric actions cause microscopic tears and this results in inflammation. Perhaps this is counterproductive. Many Olympic lifters avoid eccentrics and obtain much muscle mass. Perhaps the case for eccentrics has been overstated. Certain types of isometrics/statics do have eccentric actions.


If eccentrics have been overstated, I can think of nobody who has had a louder voice than Darden on the value of eccentrics.

Perhaps NASA will be more open to the idea of statics as they concluded isometrics wont cut it.

Without negative work potential, this method (Timed Static Contraction) should be well suited for space.

Looking forward to the results produced here on Earth...GRAVITY!
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Average Al wrote:

For Scott: go to Hutchins latest web site, Serious Exercise, and look at the article under "Positions for TSC"


Just for Scott,

1-arm shrugs with the other arm anchored allows full range of motion for the upper trapezius muscle. At the top position (static) one should turn their head slightly away from the shrug motion which is a natural full contraction of this muscle.


== Scott ==
Yes this picture makes sense, the other one didn?t .
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tensionstrength

Atp For Vitality, Thank you for posting this link. I have been making my way through Ken's articles. Greatly enjoying them.
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ATP 4 Vitality

entsminger wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Average Al wrote:

For Scott: go to Hutchins latest web site, Serious Exercise, and look at the article under "Positions for TSC"


Just for Scott,

1-arm shrugs with the other arm anchored allows full range of motion for the upper trapezius muscle. At the top position (static) one should turn their head slightly away from the shrug motion which is a natural full contraction of this muscle.

== Scott ==
Yes this picture makes sense, the other one didn?t .


Sorry Scott,

I will try harder to make my posts clear, concise and more enjoyable to read.


Marc
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ATP 4 Vitality

Resultsbased wrote:
If eccentrics have been overstated, I can think of nobody who has had a louder voice than Darden on the value of eccentrics.

Perhaps NASA will be more open to the idea of statics as they concluded isometrics wont cut it.

Without negative work potential, this method (Timed Static Contraction) should be well suited for space.

Looking forward to the results produced here on Earth...GRAVITY!


Running downhill (eccentrics) doesn't cause any appreciable hypertrophy. Similar hypertrophy can be had with very light weights and blood flow restriction which by such actions cause little microscopic tears. Is eccentric that important? I do not know. Too bad RENEX did not state this with their rhetoric.

https://www.strongerbyscience....

http://sigmanutrition.com/epis...


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StuKE

I mentioned using homemade contraptions to do isometrics during my workouts, here is an example of one. This is very simple, but the variations it permits are almost endless.
The other thing I use a lot is my chin up frame - often for pushing isometrics.
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StuKE

I find this very good for bent over row tyoe isometrics, deadlifts, shrugs, curls etc. Even military press if I kneel on a cushion on the board and attach a bar to the chain.
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