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John Little Wrong on Cardio ?
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HeavyHitter32

Nwlifter wrote:

Although doing 2 10 second static contracts every 3 weeks probably isn't going to do either!


Didn't You Know Only A Genius Can Train Like That?

lol
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

No sitting on the couch and eating Fried Twinkies for me lol.

==Scott==
I''l stick with regular Twinkies! ha ha!
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

epdavis7 wrote:
When is Grant D going to show up lol? I've always thought he was someones alias and was just trolling for a laugh.


==Scott==
I'm really surprised he's not swarming this thread about cardio as didn't he always talk praise of Little ?
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Nwlifter

HeavyHitter32 wrote:
Nwlifter wrote:

Although doing 2 10 second static contracts every 3 weeks probably isn't going to do either!

Didn't You Know Only A Genius Can Train Like That?

lol


hahah true!
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ATP 4 Vitality

https://vimeo.com/75764170
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ATP 4 Vitality

entsminger wrote:
epdavis7 wrote:
When is Grant D going to show up lol? I've always thought he was someones alias and was just trolling for a laugh.

==Scott==
I'm really surprised he's not swarming this thread about cardio as didn't he always talk praise of Little ?


He was an obvious alias!
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epdavis7

entsminger wrote:
epdavis7 wrote:
When is Grant D going to show up lol? I've always thought he was someones alias and was just trolling for a laugh.

==Scott==
I'm really surprised he's not swarming this thread about cardio as didn't he always talk praise of Little ?


DardenLittleMach303030HyperdriveInterstellarr1111 Protocol. Three Sets every three months. I have successfully added 10 Segundos to my upside down hyperdrive Squats. I am bigger, stronger, healthier and can leap tall buildings with a single bound.
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Average Al

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Average Al wrote:
epdavis7 wrote:

the sweeping and definitive statement about the worthlessness of weight based circuits for cardio.


No such statements by myself were made. On the other hand, resistance training provides lower oxygen consumption values somewhere between 39% to 51.5% of VO2 max.


Then why the constant unrelenting slams against McGuff for failing to recommend cardio in addition to HIT? You consistently bash anyone who says that strength training produces all the conditioning effect that someone needs.

You love Dr Darden's 30 minute per day walking recommendation, and seem to think that is cardio. So what kind of oxygen consumption is required to walk at 3 mph. What % of your VO2 max does that activity require?



Dr. Gibala has proposed a 1 minute workout. Richard Metcalf has proposed REHIT, which is something that I like and have used when I tried to improve my poor cardiovascular conditioning from long time HIT practice. These protocols can be read online. They are not circuit training.



What does that have to do with the effectiveness of strength training for improving CV fitness?

Even Gibala's 1-minute workout takes 10 minutes to complete, once you have factored in rest periods. And to be effective, you need to really push yourself hard during that one minute of exercise. He has said that such intensity is difficult to reach or sustain for many people. Which is why he has also explored lower intensity, longer duration intervals.

Gibala has also said that, if you lower the intensity during the work interval sufficiently, you have to extend to the time so much that you might as well just do steady state. Intervals are not magic.



Gibala does daily 30 minute exercise. He alternates body-weight resistance training exercises, AND, cycling, BOTH performed in an interval manner. So much for the Huffy Post.



So what? He recommends lots of different workouts in his book, many of which he apparently does not use himself.



Robert Hickson has a more time involved cardiovascular conditioning program that produces a remarkable rate of performance improvement of cardiorespiratory fitness.



I've read about that. It is a less effective form of interval training that is more easily tolerated by many people. They are seeking to find the minimum effective dose that produces some improvement in really out of shape unhealthy people, in order to improve compliance. How does the cardiovascular fitness of his subjects compare to rowers or marathoners? Much depends on the level of fitness you have when you start the program.



The minimal level of fitness may be explained by Ulrik Wisloff. He explains how a single hard weekly bout of HIIT produces very good results. Or you can sit on the couch and eat fried twinkies, ala Landau, and take your chances.



How do you know that Landau's cardiovascular fitness is low? Have you tested him? And who said anything in this discussion about diet?

Gibala has said that the long term benefits of HIIT are unknown, since none of his trials have lasted for more than a few months.

Does abbreviated HIIT produce the same kind of LV eccentric hypertrophy that you get from longer duration steady state cardio? What about arterial compliance, across the entire spectrum of artery sizes? What about long term improvements in insulin sensitivity, glucose utilization, lipid profile? Gibala and the REHIT researches admit that these are unknowns.

I know you love blasting McGuff for his failing to recommend cardio. But your own recommendations about cardio are inconsistent and vague. You seem to believe that doing anything called Cardio is great for the heart, but fail to take into consideration that intensity and duration of the cardio count for a lot, depending on which metrics you wish to consider. Cardio is a broad term covering a lot of different activities that have varying levels of effectiveness, depending on what your objectives are.
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ATP 4 Vitality

Average Al wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Average Al wrote:
epdavis7 wrote:

the sweeping and definitive statement about the worthlessness of weight based circuits for cardio.


No such statements by myself were made. On the other hand, resistance training provides lower oxygen consumption values somewhere between 39% to 51.5% of VO2 max.

Then why the constant unrelenting slams against McGuff for failing to recommend cardio in addition to HIT? You consistently bash anyone who says that strength training produces all the conditioning effect that someone needs.
I come to bury Caesar not to honor him
Strength training alone failed my cardiovascular needs



You love Dr Darden's 30 minute per day walking recommendation, and seem to think that is cardio. So what kind of oxygen consumption is required to walk at 3 mph. What % of your VO2 max does that activity require?


I do not know or care about the VO2 max of low intensity cardiovascular conditioning. There are reasons for LISS, but I doubt you would be interested to know. You seem very angry that the truth on cardiovascular conditioning is being told on a HIT website. Too bad!




Dr. Gibala has proposed a 1 minute workout. Richard Metcalf has proposed REHIT, which is something that I like and have used when I tried to improve my poor cardiovascular conditioning from long time HIT practice. These protocols can be read online. They are not circuit training.



What does that have to do with the effectiveness of strength training for improving CV fitness?

Even Gibala's 1-minute workout takes 10 minutes to complete, once you have factored in rest periods. And to be effective, you need to really push yourself hard during that one minute of exercise. He has said that such intensity is difficult to reach or sustain for many people. Which is why he has also explored lower intensity, longer duration intervals.

Gibala has also said that, if you lower the intensity during the work interval sufficiently, you have to extend to the time so much that you might as well just do steady state. Intervals are not magic.


You seem to relate lots of information on cardiovascular conditioning, but seem so disagreeable with my presentation of the errors in John Little article on cardio. That seems ironic. Get off the fence!



Gibala does daily 30 minute exercise. He alternates body-weight resistance training exercises, AND, cycling, BOTH performed in an interval manner. So much for the Huffy Post.



So what? He recommends lots of different workouts in his book, many of which he apparently does not use himself.



Robert Hickson has a more time involved cardiovascular conditioning program that produces a remarkable rate of performance improvement of cardiorespiratory fitness.



I've read about that. It is a less effective form of interval training that is more easily tolerated by many people. They are seeking to find the minimum effective dose that produces some improvement in really out of shape unhealthy people, in order to improve compliance. How does the cardiovascular fitness of his subjects compare to rowers or marathoners? Much depends on the level of fitness you have when you start the program.



The minimal level of fitness may be explained by Ulrik Wisloff. He explains how a single hard weekly bout of HIIT produces very good results. Or you can sit on the couch and eat fried twinkies, ala Landau, and take your chances.



How do you know that Landau's cardiovascular fitness is low? Have you tested him? And who said anything in this discussion about diet?

Gibala has said that the long term benefits of HIIT are unknown, since none of his trials have lasted for more than a few months.

Does abbreviated HIIT produce the same kind of LV eccentric hypertrophy that you get from longer duration steady state cardio? What about arterial compliance, across the entire spectrum of artery sizes? What about long term improvements in insulin sensitivity, glucose utilization, lipid profile? Gibala and the REHIT researches admit that these are unknowns.

I know you love blasting McGuff for his failing to recommend cardio. But your own recommendations about cardio are inconsistent and vague. You seem to believe that doing anything called Cardio is great for the heart, but fail to take into consideration that intensity and duration of the cardio count for a lot, depending on which metrics you wish to consider. Cardio is a broad term covering a lot of different activities that have varying levels of effectiveness, depending on what your objectives are.

I appreciate your stance of protecting the anti-cardio rhetoric. However, the preponderance of scientific evidence is on my side. This my be quite upsetting to you, but you can count on anti-cardiovascular rhetoric falling further out of favor.
You have also presented no facts or logic that are persuasive. Perhaps it is you who is vague. There is always fried Twinkies and couch lounging - PM Landau for his exact routine. Lol
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epdavis7

I don?t put much stock in Fitbit, but I have one and usually hit the magic 10000 steps by midday just doing my job or chores. I?m kind of fidgety and can?t sit still. My wife hates watching movies with me because I?ll start doing something and lose the plot. She says I got ants in my pants.
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Keyser S?

It would be interesting to see if adding cardio training to a HIT protocol improves heart rate recovery in a stress test. IDK if the test was ever done.



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Average Al

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:

I come to bury Caesar not to honor him
Strength training alone failed my cardiovascular needs



Generalizing your n=1 to everyone else is a questionable extrapolation. In this thread you can find several people who claim that strength training alone meets their cardiovascular needs. Why is your experience any more valid than theirs?



I do not know or care about the VO2 max of low intensity cardiovascular conditioning. There are reasons for LISS, but I doubt you would be interested to know. You seem very angry that the truth on cardiovascular conditioning is being told on a HIT website. Too bad



You dismiss the value of strength training because it only raises oxygen demand to 40-50% of VO2 max. The implication seems clear: cardio must raise oxygen demand above 50% VO2 max to be useful.

But then you promote LISS cardio, walking at 3 mph. Yet walking at that pace typically produces an oxygen demand of 25%-30% VO2 max, well below what can be achieved by strength training.

It is inconsistent to dismiss strength training on the basis of a low oxygen demand requirement, but then promote a modality that is even lower.

I point this out, not because I am angry, but to call into question the consistency of your argument.




I appreciate your stance of protecting the anti-cardio rhetoric. However, the preponderance of scientific evidence is on my side. This my be quite upsetting to you, but you can count on anti-cardiovascular rhetoric falling further out of favor.



I an not anti-cardio, nor am I angry or upset. I do both interval work (bike, rowing machine) and steady state cardio every week. I think it is valuable to me. In the past, on this forum, I have presented arguments in favor of doing some cardio in combination with strength training.

What I do object to is the claim that strength training does nothing for cardio vascular condition. The evidence does not support this. Strength training, by itself, will not be enough to max out the VO2 max you can display in a test. But maxing out VO2 max is mostly an issue for competitive endurance athletes. Whether or not there are compelling health and longevity benefits to maximizing VO2 max is debatable.

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hit4me

Florida, USA

Average Al wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:

I come to bury Caesar not to honor him
Strength training alone failed my cardiovascular needs



Generalizing your n=1 to everyone else is a questionable extrapolation. In this thread you can find several people who claim that strength training alone meets their cardiovascular needs. Why is your experience any more valid than theirs?



I do not know or care about the VO2 max of low intensity cardiovascular conditioning. There are reasons for LISS, but I doubt you would be interested to know. You seem very angry that the truth on cardiovascular conditioning is being told on a HIT website. Too bad



You dismiss the value of strength training because it only raises oxygen demand to 40-50% of VO2 max. The implication seems clear: cardio must raise oxygen demand above 50% VO2 max to be useful.

But then you promote LISS cardio, walking at 3 mph. Yet walking at that pace typically produces an oxygen demand of 25%-30% VO2 max, well below what can be achieved by strength training.

It is inconsistent to dismiss strength training on the basis of a low oxygen demand requirement, but then promote a modality that is even lower.

I point this out, not because I am angry, but to call into question the consistency of your argument.




I appreciate your stance of protecting the anti-cardio rhetoric. However, the preponderance of scientific evidence is on my side. This my be quite upsetting to you, but you can count on anti-cardiovascular rhetoric falling further out of favor.



I an not anti-cardio, nor am I angry or upset. I do both interval work (bike, rowing machine) and steady state cardio every week. I think it is valuable to me. In the past, on this forum, I have presented arguments in favor of doing some cardio in combination with strength training.

What I do object to is the claim that strength training does nothing for cardio vascular condition. The evidence does not support this. Strength training, by itself, will not be enough to max out the VO2 max you can display in a test. But maxing out VO2 max is mostly an issue for competitive endurance athletes. Whether or not there are compelling health and longevity benefits to maximizing VO2 max is debatable.




+1000

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ATP 4 Vitality

Average Al wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:

Generalizing your n=1 to everyone else is a questionable extrapolation.
What I do object to is the claim that strength training does nothing for cardio vascular condition.



Actually ALL athletes involved in ANY endurance event utilizes cardiovascular training of some sort. My n=1 just reflects what reasonable trainees already knew. Your posts take on an angry overtone, so I have doubts as to responding since this may only serve your emotional release more. I have never said that strength training does nothing for cardiovascular conditioning. That is your straw man argument. It has been observed that resistance training causes ventricular hypertrophy, most likely due to decreasing preload and increased arterial resistance afterload. This can not be denied. It is also true that correct cardiovascular conditioning causes desirable eccentric left ventricular hypertrophy. I notice you do not comment on this. Why not find a way to use weights to benefit cardiac morphology. Eccentric training and rest time intervals may prove the key. I do not know, and neither do you. So why so much anger?
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Nwlifter

Average Al wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:

I come to bury Caesar not to honor him
Strength training alone failed my cardiovascular needs



Generalizing your n=1 to everyone else is a questionable extrapolation. In this thread you can find several people who claim that strength training alone meets their cardiovascular needs. Why is your experience any more valid than theirs?



I do not know or care about the VO2 max of low intensity cardiovascular conditioning. There are reasons for LISS, but I doubt you would be interested to know. You seem very angry that the truth on cardiovascular conditioning is being told on a HIT website. Too bad



You dismiss the value of strength training because it only raises oxygen demand to 40-50% of VO2 max. The implication seems clear: cardio must raise oxygen demand above 50% VO2 max to be useful.

But then you promote LISS cardio, walking at 3 mph. Yet walking at that pace typically produces an oxygen demand of 25%-30% VO2 max, well below what can be achieved by strength training.

It is inconsistent to dismiss strength training on the basis of a low oxygen demand requirement, but then promote a modality that is even lower.

I point this out, not because I am angry, but to call into question the consistency of your argument.




I appreciate your stance of protecting the anti-cardio rhetoric. However, the preponderance of scientific evidence is on my side. This my be quite upsetting to you, but you can count on anti-cardiovascular rhetoric falling further out of favor.



I an not anti-cardio, nor am I angry or upset. I do both interval work (bike, rowing machine) and steady state cardio every week. I think it is valuable to me. In the past, on this forum, I have presented arguments in favor of doing some cardio in combination with strength training.

What I do object to is the claim that strength training does nothing for cardio vascular condition. The evidence does not support this. Strength training, by itself, will not be enough to max out the VO2 max you can display in a test. But maxing out VO2 max is mostly an issue for competitive endurance athletes. Whether or not there are compelling health and longevity benefits to maximizing VO2 max is debatable.



Your right, there is no denying strength training does improve cardio function.
IMO, the issue is, the specific adaptations, they do vary with different modes of training. Just like with muscles, we all know doing 3 sets of 200 reps with a light load does something 'different' to the muscles than 2x8 with a heavy load. Same with the cardio systems, the 'way' we stress it, produces different adaptations than other 'ways'.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

. So why so much anger?

==Scott==
Anger seems to be rampant on this forum. If you don't agree with me you are an A hole and worse. Not to mention names but certain people on here or who were on here are just bubbling over with hostility.I ventured to look at one of these peoples facebook page and instead of ranting and raving on here he had posted large bulletins there saying I and others on here were morons and such. It was unbelievable! I think it's time for some folks on here to forget about what happens to the muscles and cardiovascular system and start focusing on that over ripe pineapple on the top of their shoulders.

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epdavis7

What is it that people want from their training? To be healthy in general and have the energy to complete their tasks and enjoy a few recreational activities? To be an athlete in a specific sport with a specific skillset? To be jacked? Train for that and hopefully your genetic phenotype supports it. I think Joey Bag of Doughnuts who currently does nothing will make great strides to improve the quality of his life and health by simply getting more sleep, managing stress better, cleaning up his diet and doing a HIT session. Take a stroll daily to clear your mind and get some fresh air. If you want to do an athletic event you are going to have to train for it. No way around it.
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DuzHIT

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Average Al wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:

Generalizing your n=1 to everyone else is a questionable extrapolation.
What I do object to is the claim that strength training does nothing for cardio vascular condition.



Actually ALL athletes involved in ANY endurance event utilizes cardiovascular training of some sort. My n=1 just reflects what reasonable trainees already knew. Your posts take on an angry overtone, so I have doubts as to responding since this may only serve your emotional release more. I have never said that strength training does nothing for cardiovascular conditioning. That is your straw man argument. It has been observed that resistance training causes ventricular hypertrophy, most likely due to decreasing preload and increased arterial resistance afterload. This can not be denied. It is also true that correct cardiovascular conditioning causes desirable eccentric left ventricular hypertrophy. I notice you do not comment on this. Why not find a way to use weights to benefit cardiac morphology. Eccentric training and rest time intervals may prove the key. I do not know, and neither do you. So why so much anger?


I read all of these posts, and the only angry, inflammatory, or uncivil posts are yours.

Wazzup?
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Ellington Darden

Interestingly, I've fielded questions about strength training, bodybuilding, diet, and nutrition for more than 50 years. I've never had someone ask me "how to get healthy?"

Ellington
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

Ellington Darden wrote:
Interestingly, I've fielded questions about strength training, bodybuilding, diet, and nutrition for more than 50 years. I've never had someone ask me "how to get healthy?"

Ellington


== Scott ==
That is interesting! Maybe it?s because people in general don?t think of bodybuilders and the like as being heathy? They think of them like Hollywood types who look great on the outside but don?t ask about their insides. Sounds like a topic for another book!! ?You can look good and be healthy?.
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ATP 4 Vitality

It is ironic that suggesting HIT in gyms draws the ire of many, and suggesting cardio to HIT brings anger.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
It is ironic that suggesting HIT in gyms draws the ire of many, and suggesting cardio to HIT brings anger.


==Scott==
It's not just cardio that brings anger to the HIT crowd, it's anything that they consider to be out of the standard realm of HIT.I'm sure the cardio club would give the same reaction if HIT was to be introduced to their workouts!I'm sure if someone else was promoting what DR. Darden is talking about like 30-10-30 or whatever the gang here would be dead set against it. Early on when he was talking 30-30 -30 I was thinking what the hell is this crap but then you remember that this is about High Intensity and there's many ways to skin a cat.
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ATP 4 Vitality

DuzHIT wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Average Al wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:

I read all of these posts, and the only angry, inflammatory, or uncivil posts are yours.

Wazzup?


Thank you for reading ALL of these posts. Could you perhaps site JUST ONE post of mine that is angry, or uncivil?
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ATP 4 Vitality

entsminger wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
It is ironic that suggesting HIT in gyms draws the ire of many, and suggesting cardio to HIT brings anger.

==Scott==
It's not just cardio that brings anger to the HIT crowd, it's anything that they consider to out of the standard realm of HIT.I'm sure the cardio club would give the same reaction if HIT was to be introduced to their workouts!I'm sure if someone else was promoting what DR. Darden is talking about like 30-10-30 or whatever the gang here would be dead set against it. Early on when he was talking 30-30 -30 I was thinking what the hell is this crap but then you remember that this is about High Intensity and there's many ways to skin a cat.

@ Scott,

There is overwhelming evidence that cardiovascular conditioning that I discuss is HEALTHY. Why do you think Bowflex has moved toward the Max Trainer and away from Power Rods? Certain types of cardio even increase muscle. However, increasing muscle mass beyond normal does nothing special for health. It just requires increased caloric intake and wasted time in the gym. Some will even state steroids are healthy. Notice all the pro drug articles on T Nation. Are men that undereducated? Apparently so!
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DuzHIT

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
DuzHIT wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Average Al wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:

I read all of these posts, and the only angry, inflammatory, or uncivil posts are yours.

Wazzup?


Thank you for reading ALL of these posts. Could you perhaps site JUST ONE post of mine that is angry, or uncivil?


Take your pick, from the initial premise of this thread on. You inflame, infer, and personally criticize others whist alleging anger incivility, and inflamation amongst others who are merely taking a position against your beginning premise. You then deflect the arguement, citing studies and bringing in new arguements, none of which have any relevance.

When that inevitably fails, you act offended that others may call you out.

I think Freud called describing your own shortcomings in others as projection.

I don't need to cite squat. It's all there in black and gold.
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