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John Little Wrong on Cardio ?
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ATP 4 Vitality

More troublesome is that in this report, even low loads accompanied with more repetitions cause substantial arterial stiffness.

http://article.sapub.org/...0160605.05.html


Can you see the HIT boys squirming now!



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ATP 4 Vitality

Average Al wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Troublesome is reports of eccentric exercise causing central arterial stiffness

Reports that this central artery stiffness is alleviated by aerobics.

Lots not known here. It is a shame that many Nautilus aficionados are stuck in the 70s and the erroneous belief of no aerobics dogma insinuated by Arthur Jones.

This probably isn't confined to eccentric exercise. I've seen other studies which suggest that resistance training in general seems to increase arterial stiffness in some populations. I don't recall if the degree of stiffening was considered worrisome or dangerous.

Aerobics can reduce arterial stiffness. But one recent study that looked at this suggested that you needed to be pretty diligent about cardio to avoid stiffening of the larger arteries: the preventative effect was only seen in people doing at least 30 minutes of cardio 4 or more times per week. Wasn't clear from the study if walking daily for 30 minutes a day would be sufficient, or if you needed to get to higher heart rates.



@AA,

I am not thrilled with anything that contributes to central arterial stiffness. While the increased central arterial stiffness from resistance training may lead to an increased peripheral perfusion rate, this likely is detrimental to overall health and longevity.
It looks like eccentric reps lead to more myokine disturbance and increased inflammation which results in increased central arterial stiffness. Furthermore, Long duration sets of many reps decrease preload to the heart because of prolonged use of the Valsalva maneuver which will also cause CAS.

The only way that I know to offset this CAS is cardiovascular conditioning right at and mostly below the Ventilation Threshold 1.

I did 35 minutes at VT1 and heavy 1 arm pulldowns today.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
More troublesome is that in this report, even low loads accompanied with more repetitions cause substantial arterial stiffness.

http://article.sapub.org/...0160605.05.html


Can you see the HIT boys squirming now!





==Scott==
From the article mentioned:
Resistance exercises with low, moderate and high intensity let to a modest increase of PWV, cSBP, cPP and HR. Only those protocols with lower load and more repetitions acutely increased arterial stiffness (PWV, cSBP, cPP) in healthy subjects significantly.

I have no idea what all these abbreviations are but just looking at this one would think low load with more repetitions would be worse than hwavier load with less repetitions. I would think lower load with more repetitions would be more like aerobics and better for the arteries? This stuff is too damn confusing.

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DuzHIT

Actually, Tai Chi has been shown to reduce inflammation which is the culprit in arterial stiffening, as can a diet with Vitamin D and K2, wild salmon and fish or krill oil, tumeric, etc.

Since the studies are all over the place regarding resistance training and arterial stiffening, it's pretty easy to cherry pick a couple to fit your slant.
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HeavyHitter32

entsminger wrote:

==Scott==
From the article mentioned:
Resistance exercises with low, moderate and high intensity let to a modest increase of PWV, cSBP, cPP and HR. Only those protocols with lower load and more repetitions acutely increased arterial stiffness (PWV, cSBP, cPP) in healthy subjects significantly.

I have no idea what all these abbreviations are but just looking at this one would think low load with more repetitions would be worse than hwavier load with less repetitions. I would think lower load with more repetitions would be more like aerobics and better for the arteries? This stuff is too damn confusing.



From what I have gathered *in general*, anything that increases your blood pressure increases the risk of artery stiffening.

One example: a lighter load high rep set to failure might be worse than something of moderate load of moderate reps at sub failure...assuming it doesn't spike your blood pressure as much. I think the issue is multi factorial with: load, length (TUT), and effort. In some cases, a very heavy weight is automatically going to result in the rise. It would also seem how many sets and freq is another factor in the long term.

Time to re-think the self-celebration that some do regarding passing out, puking, and 220 bpm.
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ATP 4 Vitality

entsminger wrote:



==Scott==
I have no idea what all these abbreviations are but just looking at this one would think low load with more repetitions would be worse than hwavier load with less repetitions. I would think lower load with more repetitions would be more like aerobics and better for the arteries? This stuff is too damn confusing.



@ Scott,

The most likely reason for central arterial stiffness for high repetitions is the resistance to blood flow from the many muscular contractions plus the straining involved when failure is being reached which will reactively invoke the Valsalva maneuver
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ATP 4 Vitality

HeavyHitter32 wrote:
entsminger wrote:

==Scott==
From the article mentioned:
Resistance exercises with low, moderate and high intensity let to a modest increase of PWV, cSBP, cPP and HR. Only those protocols with lower load and more repetitions acutely increased arterial stiffness (PWV, cSBP, cPP) in healthy subjects significantly.

I have no idea what all these abbreviations are but just looking at this one would think low load with more repetitions would be worse than hwavier load with less repetitions. I would think lower load with more repetitions would be more like aerobics and better for the arteries? This stuff is too damn confusing.



From what I have gathered *in general*, anything that increases your blood pressure increases the risk of artery stiffening.

One example: a lighter load high rep set to failure might be worse than something of moderate load of moderate reps at sub failure...assuming it doesn't spike your blood pressure as much. I think the issue is multi factorial with: load, length (TUT), and effort. In some cases, a very heavy weight is automatically going to result in the rise. It would also seem how many sets and freq is another factor in the long term.

Time to re-think the self-celebration that some do regarding passing out, puking, and 220 bpm.


Well stated
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ATP 4 Vitality

DuzHIT wrote:
Actually, Tai Chi has been shown to reduce inflammation which is the culprit in arterial stiffening, as can a diet with Vitamin D and K2, wild salmon and fish or krill oil, tumeric, etc.

Since the studies are all over the place regarding resistance training and arterial stiffening, it's pretty easy to cherry pick a couple to fit your slant.


Mostly HIT dogma here. Aerobics have been well studied and the results of which have been well documented. Studies are not all over the place, rather resistance training in general results in central arterial stiffness. Aerobics do just the opposite. This is well studied and documented. Only HIT aficionados with agendas need to cherry pick studies here.

It is true that there are lifestyle changes and dietary changes that will help. However, here in this thread we are discussing/fussing an infamous HIT writers anti-cardio viewpoints.
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hit4me

Florida, USA

the main causes of arterial stiffness is Aging and Smoking....Arthur Jones did both, I guess his arteries must have been extremely stiff at the time of his death at the age of 80

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DuzHIT

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
DuzHIT wrote:
Actually, Tai Chi has been shown to reduce inflammation which is the culprit in arterial stiffening, as can a diet with Vitamin D and K2, wild salmon and fish or krill oil, tumeric, etc.

Since the studies are all over the place regarding resistance training and arterial stiffening, it's pretty easy to cherry pick a couple to fit your slant.

Mostly HIT dogma here. Aerobics have been well studied and the results of which have been well documented. Studies are not all over the place, rather resistance training in general results in central arterial stiffness. Aerobics do just the opposite. This is well studied and documented. Only HIT aficionados with agendas need to cherry pick studies here.

It is true that there are lifestyle changes and dietary changes that will help. However, here in this thread we are discussing/fussing an infamous HIT writers anti-cardio viewpoints.


Actually, the studies are all over the place, which if you had read more than the abstracts of the studies you googled and then cited you would know. In the 30%*3*30 set and rep study you posted, both the 75% and 50% groups showed no signs of stiffening. The prior study you posted on eccentrics listed several studies which showed either stiffening or no stiffening.

So either resistance training in general does or does not cause stiffening of arteries due to inflammation caused by the muscular breakdown/repair cycle. This risk can be minimized through diet, Nitric Oxide through breathing in through the nose and Alanine supplements, or something like beets or pycnogenol. Cardio is unnecessary for general conditioning, if you do a proper HIT workout, These other items you keep bringing up only serve to blur the original intent of this thread, which discussing/fussing an infamous HIT writer's anti-cardio viewpoints.

Of course, cardio does not incur muscle breakdown, so no inflammation occurs, unless you injure yourself. Which people do. All rhe time. It is wear and tear on the body. If anybody wants to do cardio I am completely fine with that. I hope you enjoy it and get the most out of it that you can.


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ATP 4 Vitality

DuzHIT wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
DuzHIT wrote:
Actually, Tai Chi has been shown to reduce inflammation which is the culprit in arterial stiffening, as can a diet with Vitamin D and K2, wild salmon and fish or krill oil, tumeric, etc.

Since the studies are all over the place regarding resistance training and arterial stiffening, it's pretty easy to cherry pick a couple to fit your slant.

Mostly HIT dogma here. Aerobics have been well studied and the results of which have been well documented. Studies are not all over the place, rather resistance training in general results in central arterial stiffness. Aerobics do just the opposite. This is well studied and documented. Only HIT aficionados with agendas need to cherry pick studies here.

It is true that there are lifestyle changes and dietary changes that will help. However, here in this thread we are discussing/fussing an infamous HIT writers anti-cardio viewpoints.

Actually, the studies are all over the place, which if you had read more than the abstracts of the studies you googled and then cited you would know. In the 30%*3*30 set and rep study you posted, both the 75% and 50% groups showed no signs of stiffening. The prior study you posted on eccentrics listed several studies which showed either stiffening or no stiffening.

So either resistance training in general does or does not cause stiffening of arteries due to inflammation caused by the muscular breakdown/repair cycle. This risk can be minimized through diet, Nitric Oxide through breathing in through the nose and Alanine supplements, or something like beets or pycnogenol. Cardio is unnecessary for general conditioning, if you do a proper HIT workout, These other items you keep bringing up only serve to blur the original intent of this thread, which discussing/fussing an infamous HIT writer's anti-cardio viewpoints.

Of course, cardio does not incur muscle breakdown, so no inflammation occurs, unless you injure yourself. Which people do. All rhe time. It is wear and tear on the body. If anybody wants to do cardio I am completely fine with that. I hope you enjoy it and get the most out of it that you can.




I assume you are rude to all you disagree with.
At least you are literate. But I see no further reason to communicate with you. You choose your course of HIT dogma. Maybe ignorance is bliss.
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DuzHIT

Rude would be calling you a giant bag of gas, wind, or hot air, which I definately did not do.

Wondering whether you read the studies you post is just logic, as many of them do not support your arguements.

You may choose not to respond to me, but, sadly, I will probably find it necessary to respond to you.
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epdavis7

I?m not sure what was rude about the post. Obviously, I?m very active, but it?s a choice. I think if you eat reasonably healthy, sleep enough, manage stress, have healthy relationships and stay active in general you are far and above the general populace. I still look at my 70+ year old best friend who?s never done a lick of formal exercise in his life, but does all the above and he?s healthy as a horse and full of enough life and vitality to tackle the things he needs to on a daily basis. He does a lot of physical labor by choice because he enjoys it. I think formal exercise period of any sort is not necessary if you are reasonably active and do all the other things mentioned. A sense of purpose, optimism, a passion for life and a good belly laugh daily help too.
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epdavis7

Did a big three this morning to failure. I paid very, very close attention. No valsalva noted.
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1958

Texas, USA

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
DuzHIT wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
DuzHIT wrote:
Actually, Tai Chi has been shown to reduce inflammation which is the culprit in arterial stiffening, as can a diet with Vitamin D and K2, wild salmon and fish or krill oil, tumeric, etc.

Since the studies are all over the place regarding resistance training and arterial stiffening, it's pretty easy to cherry pick a couple to fit your slant.

Mostly HIT dogma here. Aerobics have been well studied and the results of which have been well documented. Studies are not all over the place, rather resistance training in general results in central arterial stiffness. Aerobics do just the opposite. This is well studied and documented. Only HIT aficionados with agendas need to cherry pick studies here.

It is true that there are lifestyle changes and dietary changes that will help. However, here in this thread we are discussing/fussing an infamous HIT writers anti-cardio viewpoints.

Actually, the studies are all over the place, which if you had read more than the abstracts of the studies you googled and then cited you would know. In the 30%*3*30 set and rep study you posted, both the 75% and 50% groups showed no signs of stiffening. The prior study you posted on eccentrics listed several studies which showed either stiffening or no stiffening.

So either resistance training in general does or does not cause stiffening of arteries due to inflammation caused by the muscular breakdown/repair cycle. This risk can be minimized through diet, Nitric Oxide through breathing in through the nose and Alanine supplements, or something like beets or pycnogenol. Cardio is unnecessary for general conditioning, if you do a proper HIT workout, These other items you keep bringing up only serve to blur the original intent of this thread, which discussing/fussing an infamous HIT writer's anti-cardio viewpoints.

Of course, cardio does not incur muscle breakdown, so no inflammation occurs, unless you injure yourself. Which people do. All rhe time. It is wear and tear on the body. If anybody wants to do cardio I am completely fine with that. I hope you enjoy it and get the most out of it that you can.




/I assume you are rude to all you disagree with.
At least you are literate. But I see no further reason to communicate with you. You choose your course of HIT dogma. Maybe ignorance is bliss. /

Where in DuzHIT's post was he rude?! Please show us marcph!
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epdavis7

Did a big three this morning to failure. I paid very, very close attention. No valsalva noted.
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Equity

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
DuzHIT wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
DuzHIT wrote:
Actually, Tai Chi has been shown to reduce inflammation which is the culprit in arterial stiffening, as can a diet with Vitamin D and K2, wild salmon and fish or krill oil, tumeric, etc.

Since the studies are all over the place regarding resistance training and arterial stiffening, it's pretty easy to cherry pick a couple to fit your slant.

Mostly HIT dogma here. Aerobics have been well studied and the results of which have been well documented. Studies are not all over the place, rather resistance training in general results in central arterial stiffness. Aerobics do just the opposite. This is well studied and documented. Only HIT aficionados with agendas need to cherry pick studies here.

It is true that there are lifestyle changes and dietary changes that will help. However, here in this thread we are discussing/fussing an infamous HIT writers anti-cardio viewpoints.

Actually, the studies are all over the place, which if you had read more than the abstracts of the studies you googled and then cited you would know. In the 30%*3*30 set and rep study you posted, both the 75% and 50% groups showed no signs of stiffening. The prior study you posted on eccentrics listed several studies which showed either stiffening or no stiffening.

So either resistance training in general does or does not cause stiffening of arteries due to inflammation caused by the muscular breakdown/repair cycle. This risk can be minimized through diet, Nitric Oxide through breathing in through the nose and Alanine supplements, or something like beets or pycnogenol. Cardio is unnecessary for general conditioning, if you do a proper HIT workout, These other items you keep bringing up only serve to blur the original intent of this thread, which discussing/fussing an infamous HIT writer's anti-cardio viewpoints.

Of course, cardio does not incur muscle breakdown, so no inflammation occurs, unless you injure yourself. Which people do. All rhe time. It is wear and tear on the body. If anybody wants to do cardio I am completely fine with that. I hope you enjoy it and get the most out of it that you can.




I assume you are rude to all you disagree with.
At least you are literate. But I see no further reason to communicate with you. You choose your course of HIT dogma. Maybe ignorance is bliss.


Too much stress is too much stress. The body (and mind) can only endure a certain amount. A moderate amount is healthy as the body has evolved for this; but too much or too little is detrimental. How much is optimal?
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Crotalus

ATP , just curious why you'd spend so much time on a forum that isn't about aerobics knocking weight training to those who love it.

I would think you'd rather be discussing the benefits of aerobics with like minded people on an aerobics forum rather bashing weight training on a weight training forum ??

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ATP 4 Vitality

Crotalus wrote:
ATP , just curious why you'd spend so much time on a forum that isn't about aerobics knocking weight training to those who love it.

I would think you'd rather be discussing the benefits of aerobics with like minded people on an aerobics forum rather bashing weight training on a weight training forum ??



The title reads dr dardens HIT
Not weight training

Are you the site custodian?

You lie, I did not knock , whatever that means, weight training?
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1958

Texas, USA

This morning's "aerobics "

Nautilus leverage row X 11
No rest
Bwt chin ups X 9
Rest 60 seconds
Nautilus leverage seated dip X 9
No rest
Push ups on elevated handles X 13
Rest 75 seconds
Hammer leg press X 28

Now I will spend the remainder of the day in my welding shop,building a trailer for a client.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

Of course, cardio does not incur muscle breakdown, so no inflammation occurs, unless you injure yourself

==Scott==
I'm not so sure about that. I'm thinking almost anytime a muscle in put into use be it an easy load or a hard one some form of muscle breakdown may occur. If I ride an exercise bike for 20 minutes the muscles come into play and some form of muscle damage will result. Of course it won't be to the extent of a set of heavy squats but some damage will occur however minute.
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epdavis7

You?d think the guy running races all the time would be all over this. I?m not. For general purposes if you perform a proper HIT session you?ve done good enough if you do all the other things necessary for a healthy human organism. Would HIT alone condition me to run a Half Marathon? Hell no. Conversely, I could bury an elite level runner (similar in age etc) in a HIT session even though he could run rings around me on a course. SAID, specificity, neural adaptations, specific metabolic pathways and technique all come into play. Cardio exercise could give you a little leeway in diet. In my case, it tends to make me a bottomless pit and results in overeating. After a Half Marathon I am like a hog at the feeding trough.
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ptcrusader

My two cents:

Some cardio is probably helpful. What constitutes cardio may differ for each individual. I prefer to think of cardio as at least 20 minutes of exercising where it is not so strenuous that you hold your breath and produce valsalva maneuver. Doing any cardio should consider the potential benefit of lower resting heart rate, lower blood pressure, weight loss, and stress relief v. potential damage to joints and the possibility of some reduced muscle mass. Using my criteria, swimming three days a week ranks high on the scale.

Unfortunately, it is not practical for me or most folks I know as access to a pool year round is rare.

Consequently, an exercise bike or elliptical warm up followed by light circuit training may hit the sweet spot for many. For me, at least one heavy HIT, isometric or standard weight training is still recommended to the above in an attempt to avoid losing muscle mass.

To me, having a healthy heart but not being able to walk very well because of joint damage is not worth it. Similarly, being strong as an ox but not being able to climb a stair case because of being out of breath is similarly not worth it. In my opinion, finding one's balance is entirely a personal decision.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

ptcrusader wrote:
My two cents:

Some cardio is probably helpful. What constitutes cardio may differ for each individual. I prefer to think of cardio as at least 20 minutes of exercising where it is not so strenuous that you hold your breath and produce valsalva maneuver. Doing any cardio should consider the potential benefit of lower resting heart rate, lower blood pressure, weight loss, and stress relief v. potential damage to joints and the possibility of some reduced muscle mass. Using my criteria, swimming three days a week ranks high on the scale.

Unfortunately, it is not practical for me or most folks I know as access to a pool year round is rare.

Consequently, an exercise bike or elliptical warm up followed by light circuit training may hit the sweet spot for many. For me, at least one heavy HIT, isometric or standard weight training is still recommended to the above in an attempt to avoid losing muscle mass.

To me, having a healthy heart but not being able to walk very well because of joint damage is not worth it. Similarly, being strong as an ox but not being able to climb a stair case because of being out of breath is similarly not worth it. In my opinion, finding one's balance is entirely a personal decision.


==Scott==
I agree with most of what you say here. Just like some cardio may be useful, some HIT might be as well. It makes more sense to find a happy medium of both.
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epdavis7

Any of y?all ever done a 3 x 3 workout ala Matt Brcycki ie close grip pull downs, chest press, leg press repeated for three cycles? You have to reduce weight each cycle to hit target reps or TUL. It will knock your dick in the dirt. Fantastic for metabolic conditioning. Exercises could vary, but it?s basically a big lower body movement followed by an upper body pull and push. Might not be the best for bodybuilding, but will build size and strength as well as metabolic conditioning.
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