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John Little Wrong on Cardio ?
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Chris H

Chris H wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Chris H wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:

Less i have missed it {more than possible} you don't appear to have addressed the prolonged muscular contraction query i raised ?

I believe I have said what is needed



Hi Marc,

you indeed have said what is needed to make one think.

Context here is time. A HITERS or for that matter most recreational lifters, overall time under load per week/month/year i seriously doubt would elicit a permanent negative effect, irrespective of the internal mechanisms when lifting. However the caveat would be as long as one eats healthfully and is generally active.

Again time in context of aerobic exercise.
How much ?


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ATP 4 Vitality

Chris H wrote:

How much ?



How much?
How hard?
How long?

All good ? For cardiovascular & resistance training.


Goals?
Needs?
Desires?


Need to lose weight?
Energy levels?
Life styles?
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epdavis7

There are a core group of exercises I always perform based on equipment limitations, past injuries, what I consider mechanically safe, what benefits the non-resistance activities I enjoy, and sticking to the concept of minimal effective dose, but what I have recently started doing is change things up every so often. Sometimes it?s shorter TUL, sometimes it?s longer TUL, sometimes it?s 10/10, sometimes it?s 3/3, sometimes I change the order of the exercises, sometimes before and after a race I?ll just do a big three for recovery. I don?t know if it?s physiologically beneficial, but mentally it helps. My list of exercises is rather small and is usually split into two workouts alternated every other week. My core workout.

A)
Dumbbell Bench Press
Dumbbell Rows
Hip Belt Squat
Weighted Ab Work
Thick Bar Wrist Curls
Thick Bar Wrist Extensions
***Sometimes Gripper Work

B)
Weighted Chins
Seated Dumbbell Press
Weighted 45 Degree Hyperextensions
Dumbbell One-Legged Calf Raises
Dard Tibia Raises
Dumbbell Neck Curls
Ironmind Neck Harness Extensions

I?m currently alternating a weekly run. One is a 4 mile run done at lungs coming out of my chest pace on flat terrain and the other is a 10 mile run done on hillier terrain at a slower pace, but still faster than what I would run a half marathon. Throw in 2-3 self defense workouts, 2x daily dog walks and plenty of physical labor taking care of the homestead. I?m as fit as I need to be to do the things I enjoy with the time I have available. Could I do more? Probably, but I train to live, not live to train. Above all, I enjoy spending time with family and friends and that is vastly more important than any of this stuff although I do enjoy it.
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Chris H

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Chris H wrote:

How much ?



How much?
How hard?
How long?

All good ? For cardiovascular & resistance training.


Goals?
Needs?
Desires?


Need to lose weight?
Energy levels?
Life styles?


General/beneficial health improvements, not performance, and minimal dose
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ATP 4 Vitality

Clarence Bass 1x/wk/intervals

Martin Gibala 3x/wk 3x20 sec intervals 2 minute rests

Michael Mosley Ditto

Jamie Timmons Ditto

Izumi Tabata 4 days/week 20 sec/10 sec work rest ratio PLUS 1 day LISS

Maffetone method

Kenneth Cooper walk two miles in less than forty minutes five times a week

HIT aficionados Zero cardio

American Heart Association 30 minutes 5x/week




As one can see, cardiovascular recommendations are all over the place.









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dipsrule

Pennsylvania, USA

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Clarence Bass 1x/wk/intervals

Martin Gibala 3x/wk 3x20 sec intervals 2 minute rests

Michael Mosley Ditto

Jamie Timmons Ditto

Izumi Tabata 4 days/week 20 sec/10 sec work rest ratio PLUS 1 day LISS

Maffetone method

Kenneth Cooper walk two miles in less than forty minutes five times a week

HIT aficionados Zero cardio

American Heart Association 30 minutes 5x/week




As one can see, cardiovascular recommendations are all over the place.












HIT aficionados Zero cardio

Not always the case if you consider brisk walking for 40-60 minutes a few time a week cardio. YMMV

Brisk walking because it is easier on the joints.

I would call Dr.Ken a HIT aficionado.


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ATP 4 Vitality

dipsrule wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Clarence Bass 1x/wk/intervals

Martin Gibala 3x/wk 3x20 sec intervals 2 minute rests

Michael Mosley Ditto

Jamie Timmons Ditto

Izumi Tabata 4 days/week 20 sec/10 sec work rest ratio PLUS 1 day LISS

Maffetone method

Kenneth Cooper walk two miles in less than forty minutes five times a week

HIT aficionados Zero cardio

American Heart Association 30 minutes 5x/week




As one can see, cardiovascular recommendations are all over the place.












HIT aficionados Zero cardio

Not always the case if you consider brisk walking for 40-60 minutes a few time a week cardio. YMMV

Brisk walking because it is easier on the joints.

I would call Dr.Ken a HIT aficionado.




Splitting hairs
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Chris H

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Clarence Bass 1x/wk/intervals

Martin Gibala 3x/wk 3x20 sec intervals 2 minute rests

Michael Mosley Ditto

Jamie Timmons Ditto

Izumi Tabata 4 days/week 20 sec/10 sec work rest ratio PLUS 1 day LISS

Maffetone method

Kenneth Cooper walk two miles in less than forty minutes five times a week

HIT aficionados Zero cardio

American Heart Association 30 minutes 5x/week




As one can see, cardiovascular recommendations are all over the place.



all this shows is that no one knows ?

therefore on the balance of probability maybe John Little is right about cardio at least in context of general health







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Chris H

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Clarence Bass 1x/wk/intervals

Martin Gibala 3x/wk 3x20 sec intervals 2 minute rests

Michael Mosley Ditto

Jamie Timmons Ditto

Izumi Tabata 4 days/week 20 sec/10 sec work rest ratio PLUS 1 day LISS

Maffetone method

Kenneth Cooper walk two miles in less than forty minutes five times a week

HIT aficionados Zero cardio

American Heart Association 30 minutes 5x/week




As one can see, cardiovascular recommendations are all over the place.







Looks like no one knows.
Maybe John Little was right on Cardio after all.

Open User Options Menu

ATP 4 Vitality

Chris H wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Clarence Bass 1x/wk/intervals

Martin Gibala 3x/wk 3x20 sec intervals 2 minute rests

Michael Mosley Ditto

Jamie Timmons Ditto

Izumi Tabata 4 days/week 20 sec/10 sec work rest ratio PLUS 1 day LISS

Maffetone method

Kenneth Cooper walk two miles in less than forty minutes five times a week

HIT aficionados Zero cardio

American Heart Association 30 minutes 5x/week




As one can see, cardiovascular recommendations are all over the place.







Looks like no one knows.
Maybe John Little was right on Cardio after all.



Then, by all means, follow his advice.
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epdavis7

Chris H wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Clarence Bass 1x/wk/intervals

Martin Gibala 3x/wk 3x20 sec intervals 2 minute rests

Michael Mosley Ditto

Jamie Timmons Ditto

Izumi Tabata 4 days/week 20 sec/10 sec work rest ratio PLUS 1 day LISS

Maffetone method

Kenneth Cooper walk two miles in less than forty minutes five times a week

HIT aficionados Zero cardio

American Heart Association 30 minutes 5x/week




As one can see, cardiovascular recommendations are all over the place.







Looks like no one knows.
Maybe John Little was right on Cardio after all.



I ran 10 miles early this morning and walked my dogs three. I also worked in the yard several hours and walked the dogs again this evening with my wife. Certainly this keeps me conditioned to run races which I enjoy for now, but is it needed for general health? I doubt it. From a health (not performance) perspective (both physical and mental}, a HIT session, some walking (more for. Mood ) and just staying active in general is enough. No one knows for sure.
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Chris H

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Chris H wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Clarence Bass 1x/wk/intervals

Martin Gibala 3x/wk 3x20 sec intervals 2 minute rests

Michael Mosley Ditto

Jamie Timmons Ditto

Izumi Tabata 4 days/week 20 sec/10 sec work rest ratio PLUS 1 day LISS

Maffetone method

Kenneth Cooper walk two miles in less than forty minutes five times a week

HIT aficionados Zero cardio

American Heart Association 30 minutes 5x/week




As one can see, cardiovascular recommendations are all over the place.







Looks like no one knows.
Maybe John Little was right on Cardio after all.



Then, by all means, follow his advice.


that would be the logical conclusion, based on the differing opinions, as i feel his advice holds up under scrutiny, better then the counter argument.

However one must stay open minded, and apply the info to oneself, ones own circumstances, and experiment and evaluate from there.

Thanks Marc, plenty to ponder and play with.


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Chris H

epdavis7 wrote:
Chris H wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Clarence Bass 1x/wk/intervals

Martin Gibala 3x/wk 3x20 sec intervals 2 minute rests

Michael Mosley Ditto

Jamie Timmons Ditto

Izumi Tabata 4 days/week 20 sec/10 sec work rest ratio PLUS 1 day LISS

Maffetone method

Kenneth Cooper walk two miles in less than forty minutes five times a week

HIT aficionados Zero cardio

American Heart Association 30 minutes 5x/week




As one can see, cardiovascular recommendations are all over the place.







Looks like no one knows.
Maybe John Little was right on Cardio after all.



I ran 10 miles early this morning and walked my dogs three. I also worked in the yard several hours and walked the dogs again this evening with my wife. Certainly this keeps me conditioned to run races which I enjoy for now, but is it needed for general health? I doubt it. From a health (not performance) perspective (both physical and mental}, a HIT session, some walking (more for. Mood ) and just staying active in general is enough. No one knows for sure.


i agree with your overall view.

i don't run or play sport but i do a little a little bag and kb work, just in case.

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ptcrusader

I personally define cardio exercise as doing a rhythmic activity that raises your heart rate into your target heart rate zone, resulting in burning fat and calories. For me to count the exercise as "cardio exercise" I must do the activity for at least 10 minutes.

With this understanding, I suggest strength training 1 to 2 times a week (avoiding valsalva maneuver) and cardiovascular exercise at least 1 to
2 times a week. This should help promote:
-increased lung capacity.
-lower risk of heart attack
-increase your chance of improving cholesterol, blood pressure, & A(1)C.
-improve mood
-reduce stress & anxiety.
-improve sex life.
-increase confidence.
-increase bone density with weight-bearing cardio.

Joint health must also be considered when selecting the form of cardiovascular exercise. Not everyone should jog. In my opinion, smart choices are necessary to maximize quality of life.
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HeavyHitter32

I ride an exercise bike or power walk on a treadmill 3-4 days a week. I'm only doing it for around 22-23 minutes each time (might get 6 miles in on the bike in this time), but get the heart rate up, sweat, etc. so the intensity is a little higher. My HDL did go up having made no other changes, so there was a positive effect. I've always had good blood pressure, but it also seemed to drop even lower. I also agree about the more positive mental state. If I don't sleep particularly well on a given night, I can do one of these activities the next day or morning and feel so much better right after. It's a great pick-me-up.

I usually do it on non-weight training days although once in a while I might do it after weight training.

However, most of my weight training is more volume based with very short rests between sets and exercises (10-20 sec or even less sometimes) so there is probably at least a small cardio benefit there too.

On either rate, I am doing some kind of "exercise" six days a week...sometimes 7 days. Staying active feels far better.

I also feel over time, it does help a bit in keeping me just a little leaner. I'm only burning 120-150 calories each time, but it helps keep your metabolism elevated afterward and throughout the day and this adds up to burning calories over time (weeks and months, but make no mistake, proper diet is the biggest factor but this is like icing on the cake).
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

HeavyHitter32 wrote:
I ride an exercise bike or power walk on a treadmill 3-4 days a week. I'm only doing it for around 22-23 minutes each time (might get 6 miles in on the bike in this time), but get the heart rate up, sweat, etc. so the intensity is a little higher. My HDL did go up having made no other changes, so there was a positive effect. I've always had good blood pressure, but it also seemed to drop even lower. I also agree about the more positive mental state. If I don't sleep particularly well on a given night, I can do one of these activities the next day or morning and feel so much better right after. It's a great pick-me-up.

I usually do it on non-weight training days although once in a while I might do it after weight training.

However, most of my weight training is more volume based with very short rests between sets and exercises (10-20 sec or even less sometimes) so there is probably at least a small cardio benefit there too.

On either rate, I am doing some kind of "exercise" six days a week...sometimes 7 days. Staying active feels far better.

I also feel over time, it does help a bit in keeping me just a little leaner. I'm only burning 120-150 calories each time, but it helps keep your metabolism elevated afterward and throughout the day and this adds up to burning calories over time (weeks and months, but make no mistake, proper diet is the biggest factor but this is like icing on the cake).


==Scott==
I agree completely! Keeping active all the time is important. I can't imagine these routines where you workout and then take a week or more until you do something else. That would drive me nuts.
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hit4me

Florida, USA

i walk 3 miles at a good pace almost everyday, takes about 45 minutes.....I do it to get my heart beating and my blood flowing and relax my mind

sometimes I will jog during that walk, depends on how my joints feel

but I have to go to the gym 2x/week, once a week just doesn't do it for me
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ptcrusader

Neither endorsing nor criticizing Little. Just stating that Little opines:

? Certain types of exercise can make you less healthy and fatter.
? Large doses of food supplements may increase the risk for disease.
? Stretching has little benefit
? Strength training is one of the best form of exercise.

High intense training for short duration may provide all the health benefits that one needs and it leaves you with more time to enjoy life.

While he may be generally correct, my previous recommendation is still 1 to 2 times a week strength training of some variation (Darden 30 or 20 -10-30 or 20 seems like a decent option) and some form of rhythmic cardio at least 1 to 2 times a week (elliptical, jogging, exercise bike, bike or brisk walk) for at least 10 to 20 minutes.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

? Certain types of exercise can make you less healthy and fatter.
? Large doses of food supplements may increase the risk for disease.
? Stretching has little benefit

==Scott==
Yes, repeatedly jumping off steps holding a large anvil can be dangerous, ha ha.
Unless you have some deficiency you don't need any supplements.
Try reaching over to pick up the quarter on the ground when you're as inflexible as I am!
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Average Al

IMO, classifying exercise as either cardio or strength training is somewhat artificial. Any kind of physical activity that forces your body to use more oxygen has the potential to improve your cardiovascular fitness. But which particular attributes of cardiovascular fitness can be improved, and by how much, is very much dependent on the details.

Most people would probably classify walking as a form of cardiovascular conditioning. And there is little doubt that someone who walks daily for 30 minutes will be in better physical condition and better cardiovascular condition than someone who is completely sedentary. But that doesn't mean that walking 30 minutes a day produces superb cardiovascular conditioning. Why? The intensity is too low to produce that kind of outcome; that level of activity will never create a high enough level of oxygen demand to produce maximal adaptations.

On the other hand, someone who performs two HIT sessions a week, of 30 minutes in duration, with a sufficient number of exercises will very likely reach O2 demand levels that are higher than what the daily walker can ever achieve. So even though the dose is lower (2x per week vs 7x per week), the HIT practitioner may well end up producing a higher level of cardiovascular adaptation than could be achieved by walking alone.

Does this mean that the HIT practitioner has achieved a superb level of cardiovascular conditioning? The studies I?ve seen suggest probably not. But does it get them to a level which is adequate? I think that is difficult to answer, because no one can really define what adequate means.

And one might further ask: if the HIT sessions produce better adaptations than walking alone, will doing daily walks in addition to biweekly HIT sessions really produce anything extra in the way of cardiovascular adaptations? I do not know. Perhaps it depends on which cardiovascular attributes you measure. Maybe the extra walking is worthless for further gains in VO2 max, but might be useful for something else (reduced arterial stiffening)? Or maybe it is just a waste of time (unless you enjoy it).

But what if you are after superb cardiovascular conditioning? What if you want the biggest heart, capable of the highest cardiovascular output that you can achieve? Well, in that case, you probably have to incorporate exercises that are traditionally prescribed as cardio: running, biking, rowing, swimming, cross country skiing. The common elements of these exercises are: low intensity muscular contractions, done rhythmically at a high frequency, utilizing a relatively large percentage of the bodies muscle mass. Why? Because the evidence in the literature suggests that, with this kind of exercise, you can create a high level of oxygen demand and sustain it for a relatively long time. Exercising under those conditions (assuming a sufficient level of intensity and sufficient duration) seems to produce unique adaptations of the heart (eccentric LV hypertrophy and reduced arterial stiffness).

Why can't you get the same result with weight training? Doesn't a good HIT session leave you breathless and with your heart racing? Doesn't a 20 rep squat session produce a high level of oxygen demand? All of those things are true, but if you look at Oxygen Demand vs Heart Rate elevation, studies suggest that traditional cardio will still allow you to get to higher levels of oxygen demand than is possible with resistance training:
(https://www.researchgate.net/publication/21082874_Relationship_of_heart_rate_to_oxygen_uptake_during_weight_lifting_exercise)

Why this is true has to do with differences in the nature of the muscular contractions used. Traditional cardio uses low intensity, high frequency contractions which facilitate refilling of the heart, whereas the longer duration and higher intensity contractions used in traditional weight lifting result in a somewhat impeded flow of blood to and from the exercising muscles. Part of the heart rate elevation that occurs in traditional resistance training is the result of the heart trying to overcome the extra resistance to blood flow in the exercising muscles. This is evidenced by the greater elevation in blood pressure that occurs when weight lifting (relative to what is experienced in traditional cardio). That is why weight lifters sometimes exhibit concentric LV hypertrophy (heart wall thickening) in response to their training, whereas endurance athletes tend to get eccentric LV hypertrophy (expansion in the volume of the left ventricle without noticeable heart wall thickening).

Again, what is necessary or adequate for health can be a lot different than what is possible if one chooses to push any kind of training to an extreme level. What happens at the extremes of training may not be relevant to the average person just trying to be healthy.
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Chris H

Average Al

excellent post.

Highlights wat i was asking Marc.

Plenty may do cardio, but the cardio employed makes them better at that activity, not necessarily healthier.
I know the HIT crowd get somewhat fanatical about wear and tear, but the concern is valid.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

I know the HIT crowd get somewhat fanatical about wear and tear, but the concern is valid.

==Scott==
Let's just say the HIT crowd is fanatical, ha ha. I know the folks on here won't like this but I think all this arguing about not doing cardio is just a way to justify sitting around on their ass.Oh god, if I ran around the block my knees and joints would all wear out and I'd soon be in a wheel chair. You'll be in one anyway.
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epdavis7

hit4me wrote:
i walk 3 miles at a good pace almost everyday, takes about 45 minutes.....I do it to get my heart beating and my blood flowing and relax my mind

sometimes I will jog during that walk, depends on how my joints feel

but I have to go to the gym 2x/week, once a week just doesn't do it for me


I think if I wasn't so active I would lift 2x a week, but in the totality of a week my activities are rather high in spite of 1x a week training. Last week I lifted 1x, I ran 10 miles, I walked my dogs 2x daily for 30-45 minutes. I also did 3 self defense sessions that killed me and left me rather sore. Its high impact striking (with and without weapons) and ground fighting (with and without weapons). Our last session we worked on neck cranks, chokes and strangles and my biceps, forearms and hands were sore to the touch. Also without seeming like a nutbar prepper I did 15 minutes nightly of dryfire training with a SIRT pistol (shooting on the move, engaging multiple targets, quick draw).

Add in lawn maintenance, gardening, recreational bike riding and various sundries and I do a shit ton of activity outside of my 1x a week HIT training. I also fish, hike, camp, hunt etc when I have time. I am opposed to doing HIT 1x a week and spending the rest of the week pining away reading Atlas Shrugged or some other silliness.
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epdavis7

In spite of all this I still think John Little (and Dr McGuff) have valid points. To be healthy, not much is needed from an exercise standpoint. To be an athlete or excel at an activity, much is needed...however this may also damage your long term health and longevity.
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Chris H

entsminger wrote:
I know the HIT crowd get somewhat fanatical about wear and tear, but the concern is valid.

==Scott==
Let's just say the HIT crowd is fanatical, ha ha. I know the folks on here won't like this but I think all this arguing about not doing cardio is just a way to justify sitting around on their ass.Oh god, if I ran around the block my knees and joints would all wear out and I'd soon be in a wheel chair. You'll be in one anyway.


i'm not so sure its about justifying siting around on ones arse, but it is about justifying doing what is necessary and required for health rather than performance.
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