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John Little Wrong on Cardio ?
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

hit4me wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
epdavis7 wrote:
Anybody old enough to remember the show battle of the superstars where they had top athletes from various sports compete in different athletic events? The results were interesting. Joe Frazier, Scott Tinley, Mike Mentzer, Lou Ferrigno and various professional athletes competed in semi neutral events. SAID was evident. I liked it better than WSM.

And Mike Mentzer did loads of cardio and Olympic lifting prior to competition

mike mentzer smoked cigarettes, did steroids and took prescription drugs too


== Scott==
I think all that nonsense except the steroids started after he lost that contest to Arnold and he quit bodybuilding .
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epdavis7

In his own words he started taking amphetamines in 1979 not to get high, but to be more productive. After his loss in 1980 things started spiraling out of control and he was institutionalizationed quite frequently between 1985-1990 for lots of bizarre behavior. He made a personal comeback afterwards and began fine tuning his Heavy Duty system and personal training.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

entsminger wrote:
hit4me wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
epdavis7 wrote:
Anybody old enough to remember the show battle of the superstars where they had top athletes from various sports compete in different athletic events? The results were interesting. Joe Frazier, Scott Tinley, Mike Mentzer, Lou Ferrigno and various professional athletes competed in semi neutral events. SAID was evident. I liked it better than WSM.

And Mike Mentzer did loads of cardio and Olympic lifting prior to competition

mike mentzer smoked cigarettes, did steroids and took prescription drugs too


== Scott==
I think all that nonsense except the steroids started after he lost that contest to Arnold and he quit bodybuilding .


== Scott ==
Does anyone remember what year that one was?
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epdavis7

Scott I?m not sure. Early 80s? I haven?t gone through the site below. I don?t think Franco Colombo ever participated in this? I think he did an early version of WSM.

http://www.thesuperstars.org/

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entsminger

Virginia, USA

epdavis7 wrote:
In his own words he started taking amphetamines in 1979 not to get high, but to be more productive. After his loss in 1980 things started spiraling out of control and he was institutionalizationed quite frequently between 1985-1990 for lots of bizarre behavior. He made a personal comeback afterwards and began fine tuning his Heavy Duty system and personal training.


== Scott==
I recall when I worked out at Spartan Gym where he also worked out more than once when we were in the locker room he?d open his gym bag and it looked like a pharmacy , maybe 25 odd bottles of some crap rolling around in it. He was very bull headed and because he was taking some kind of medical classes in college he?d act like he knew what he was doing with all the crap he was taking. Electrical muscle stimulation, uppers to keep him awake so he could study, downers so he could sleep and the roids to build muscle and god knows what else.
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epdavis7

1982

http://www.thesuperstars.org/...comp/82pr3.html
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

epdavis7 wrote:
1982

http://www.thesuperstars.org/...comp/82pr3.html


== Scott ==
Hey thanks for posting this . Unless I?m reading this wrong it seems Mentzer didn?t participate in a whole lot ? Most events say NA for him ?
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epdavis7

Scott thats correct. I remember Lou Ferrigno couldn't finish a half mile run for some reason although he won the rowing. From what I remember Mike Mentzer couldn't figure out how to row forward and was going in circles. Mike and Lou both military pressed 320 and Lou won with a military press of 325. Both missed 330. The record was previously set at 315 by Lyle Alzado.
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ATP 4 Vitality

A cardiovascular conditioned heart shows an increase in the internal diameter of the left ventricle and heart wall thickness. This results in increased capacity of the left ventricle to hold and eject blood. The resultant eccentric hypertrophy is primarily induced by blood flow volume overflow such as a lot of blood flow per minute being pumped through, and an unrestricted return of blood to the right atrium.


Prolonged muscular contractions such as occurring during resistance training impedes blood flow overflow. Therefore, resistance training does not meet the requirements of high level cardiovascular conditioning requirements.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

epdavis7 wrote:
Scott thats correct. I remember Lou Ferrigno couldn't finish a half mile run for some reason although he won the rowing. From what I remember Mike Mentzer couldn't figure out how to row forward and was going in circles. Mike and Lou both military pressed 320 and Lou won with a military press of 325. Both missed 330. The record was previously set at 315 by Lyle Alzado.


== Scott ==
Oh god now I remember that sad part where Mentzer kept rowing in circles. Of course both Mike and Lou could do well in the weight department , otherwise what a pathetic showing. They lived up to the stereotype notion that bodybuilders are clods!! I did see Lou do well in some other strong man contest later on. It?s on YouTube.
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Crotalus

entsminger wrote:
They lived up to the stereotype notion that bodybuilders are clods!!


Always puzzled me why bodybuilders are often expected to be able to do all things well ... yet I never hear of someone criticizing a swimmer because they can't kick a field goal, a quarterback because they can't hit a curve ball, or a race car driver excelling a an equestrian event.

Why are these comparisons limited to hammering bodybuilders who couldn't cross over and do well in another sport's skill ?

Why aren't there competitions that have marathon runners trying to move the Atlas stones or a golfer doing a Farmers Walk with a Volkswagen ?

If they did, I'm sure they wouldn't get hammered like the bodybuilders do who try things they aren't build to do.



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entsminger

Virginia, USA

Crotalus wrote:
entsminger wrote:
They lived up to the stereotype notion that bodybuilders are clods!!

Always puzzled me why bodybuilders are often expected to be able to do all things well ... yet I never hear of someone criticizing a swimmer because they can't kick a field goal, a quarterback because they can't hit a curve ball, or a race car driver excelling a an equestrian event.

Why are these comparisons limited to hammering bodybuilders who couldn't cross over and do well in another sport's skill ?

Why aren't there competitions that have marathon runners trying to move the Atlas stones or a golfer doing a Farmers Walk with a Volkswagen ?

If they did, I'm sure they wouldn't get hammered like the bodybuilders do who try things they aren't build to do.





==Scott==
I think the very Strong man competitions we were just talking about addressed that to some extent. There were runners, football players, shot put throwers , tennis players etc etc that competed. I think bodybuilders get flack because it's more like a beauty contest. These guys build up wonderful physiques but don't "seem" to have any particular physical ability to show off other than how they look.I know many bodybuilders can perform very well at many sports but the public in general doesn't see that so they think all they can do is strut around looking good. It especially didn't help the cause when Mentzer can't even figure out how to row a boat in a straight line.So much for the thinking mans bodybuilder, ha ha. They never should have put that basket case in there.
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epdavis7

Marc,

I get what you are saying, but borrowing your words, is "high level cardivascular conditioning" necessary for health? My father took the endurance thing to an extreme and his joints survived, but he had scarring on his heart tissue. 50+ mile weeks of running for decades. Now his heart gets out of rhythm and it has to be shocked to get back in sync. My Mom who did nothing more than keep an immaculate house and raise 4 kids and eat reasonably healthy is in far better health (and now physical conditioning since he can't exert himself anymore) than he is. He has to take loads of pills and is always worried about overexerting himself for fear of his heart getting out of rhythm.
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epdavis7

I think WSM competitors would do far better at these events than a bodybuilder would. They are a little more athletic than a guy worrying about his upper pec and quad striations.
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DuzHIT

Florida, USA

FYI Mentzer finished 2nd in swimming and weight lifting, third in the obstacle course, 5th in rowing, and last in the 100. Final standings he finished ahead of Michael Spinks and Cedric Maxwell. He competed in 5 of the ten events. The winner competed in 7 of ten.
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epdavis7

I remember reading in Muscle and Fiction that he (Mike Mentzer) really trained hard for the swimming event.

The obstacle course was kind of humorous to watch.
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Average Al

epdavis7 wrote:
Marc,

I get what you are saying, but borrowing your words, is "high level cardivascular conditioning" necessary for health? My father took the endurance thing to an extreme and his joints survived, but he had scarring on his heart tissue. 50+ mile weeks of running for decades. Now his heart gets out of rhythm and it has to be shocked to get back in sync. My Mom who did nothing more than keep an immaculate house and raise 4 kids and eat reasonably healthy is in far better health (and now physical conditioning since he can't exert himself anymore) than he is. He has to take loads of pills and is always worried about overexerting himself for fear of his heart getting out of rhythm.


Yeah, that would really suck. Devote a large part of your life to becoming super fit, thinking that would mean super healthy, only to find out that you may have done just the opposite.

Of course, it is always hard to know how much of a problem like that is just bad luck, bad genetics, etc., and how much was self inflicted. But it does seem clear that practicing endurance training to an extreme (emphasis on EXTREME) does increase your risk for that kind of thing.

I suppose it is human nature to take something you are good at, and try to turn it into the ultimate virtue for health. Guys who love to run decide that finishing marathons mean optimal fitness. Guys who are naturally strong and muscular gravitate to the gym and assume that big muscles = immortality, guys who can get ripped easily decide that visible abs = super healthy. Biology is a bit more complex than that.

Moderation doesn't attract as much attention, but probably works better for most.

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ATP 4 Vitality

epdavis7 wrote:
Marc,

I get what you are saying,


I appreciate your understanding, but your total reply tells me you do not get it!



but borrowing your words, is "high level cardivascular conditioning" necessary for health?



Of course not! And neither did I say it did! Furthermore, high levels of muscle mass is not necessary for health.



My father took the endurance thing to an extreme and his joints survived, but he had scarring on his heart tissue. 50+ mile weeks of running for decades. Now his heart gets out of rhythm and it has to be shocked to get back in sync. My Mom who did nothing more than keep an immaculate house and raise 4 kids and eat reasonably healthy is in far better health (and now physical conditioning since he can't exert himself anymore) than he is. He has to take loads of pills and is always worried about overexerting himself for fear of his heart getting out of rhythm.


I am sorry for your father. I wish the best for him.

I am not a big proponent of large amounts of cardiovascular conditioning or large amounts of resistance training. I sacrificed cardiovascular conditioning for far too long as I followed HIT dogma of no cardio needed. As a result, I got out of breath easily during exertion. I was aging also. I did not care for the lack of cardiovascular conditioning HIT gave me. Upon evaluating data, science, logic, and most importantly experience, I realized some cardio was important. Upon talking about this common phenomenon, most HITers were very rude and dismissive of anything resembling cardio. Dr. McGuff even banned me, as his ilk have been the absolute worse examples of respectful dialogue. You can not discuss exercise with such ilk, as McGuff has not a clue on cardiovascular exercise. For example, he needs to increase his cardiovascular system, so he is going to use the skill of running. Give me a break!
I am like Marc Anthony, I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him. Bye bye, anti-cardio HIT, you have been weighed in the balance, and found deficient
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epdavis7

My educated guess is self inflicted. None of his other siblings or his children (I'm one of them) have this condition. His siblings had other health issues, but they were related to smoking, obesity, etc. He also did Judo, Boxing and some weight training at various stages of his life. He would have probably been better off doing that exclusively than all the extreme running that he did.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

==Scott==
When ever you want to win an argument just turn to the tried and true tactic of using someone who has gone to the extreme and suffered from doing so. This guy ran 50 miles a day and sure enough his knees gave out, this fellow lifted a 250 pound anvil and it slipped and crushed his foot. There you have it, running and or lifting heavy weights is bad.
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epdavis7

Anyone can get winded doing an activity they are not used to doing or haven't done in awhile. In order to save money while I was in the military I decided to do a DIY move as you could make a few bucks if you do it yourself. A friend of my sister in laws was a professional mover and volunteered to help for beer and pizza. He wasn't into weight lifting or "cardio" as his job was strenous on its own. He was physically a lot smaller than me and a few years older. Moving all our furniture out of a two story house sure kicked my behind and left me laid up for a few days. It didn't bother him at all. He knew how to use leverage and body mechanics to his advantage. He did have a well abover average grip. I'm not telling anyone not to do "cardio" but that I do not think it is necessary beyond HIT to lead a full, active, healthy life. Just stay active doing something on your off days. Not structured per se, just recreational fun things. I'm running a 10 Mile race in February, two Half Marathons in March, one in April and another Tough Mudder in June. As I said earlier if you dropped me in the water to do an open water swim I would be out of breath quickly as I haven't trained for triathlons in several years.
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epdavis7

Ya'll do realize that we are on the message board of a man (Dr Darden) that does not endorse "cardio" exercise. He has suggested a 20 minute stroll after your evening meal to aid with digestion and weight loss, but not formal "cardio" exercise as you are suggesting. If you are an athlete that has running as part of your sport (or you just want to do it), by all means run, run and run some more.

Now to really blow your mind, he doesn't think warmups are necessary for HIT workouts and that stretching is necessary for average people that don't need extreme flexibility (ie Gymnasts, Ballerinas and Martial Arts that emphasize high kicking).
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DuzHIT

Florida, USA

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
A cardiovascular conditioned heart shows an increase in the internal diameter of the left ventricle and heart wall thickness. This results in increased capacity of the left ventricle to hold and eject blood. The resultant eccentric hypertrophy is primarily induced by blood flow volume overflow such as a lot of blood flow per minute being pumped through, and an unrestricted return of blood to the right atrium.


Prolonged muscular contractions such as occurring during resistance training impedes blood flow overflow. Therefore, resistance training does not meet the requirements of high level cardiovascular conditioning requirements.


According to the Mayo Clinic website, left vetricular hypertrophy can occur from endurance training OR weight training.

Perhaps if you trained as hard with HIT as you do running it down, you may not need endurance training, unless your athletic endeavor or occupation, such as soldier, sailor, fireman, required such training.
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DuzHIT

Florida, USA

epdavis7 wrote:
Ya'll do realize that we are the message board of a man (Dr Darden) that does not endorse "cardio" exercise. He has suggested a 20 minute stroll after your evening meal to aid with digestion and weight loss, but not formal "cardio" exercise as you are suggesting. If you are an athlete that has running as part of your sport (or you just want to do it), by all means run, run and run some more.

Now to really blow your mind, he doesn't think warmups are necessary for HIT workouts and that stretching is necessary for average people that don't need extreme flexibility (ie Gymnasts, Ballerinas and Martial Arts that emphasize high kicking).


I agree with Dr. Darden. And not just cause he's a doctor.

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