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"Doing more exercise with less intensity,"
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must be done . . . and quickly."
The New Bodybuilding for
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This is one of 93 photos of Andy McCutcheon that are used in The New High-Intensity Training to illustrate the recommended exercises.

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John Little Wrong on Cardio ?
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Nwlifter

DuzHIT wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Some people are sedentary. Many are obese. Walking is high level cardiovascular conditioning for them. Get off the high horse!

So if walking is cardio conditioning for an obese person, resistance training certainly would be also! So Little was right after all. Case closed!



Although doing 2 10 second static contracts every 3 weeks probably isn't going to do either!
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Nwlifter

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Nwlifter wrote:

A non stop repeated circuit training is a great cardio workout,



It most certainly is not. Certain requirements are not met.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/.../pubmed/6513767

To improve VO2 max you need to be able to contract a large number of muscle fibers simultaneously, increasing the oxygen demand, but you also need to be able to relax them quickly, too. A muscle contracted above fifty percent of its maximum will actually prevent blood from flowing into it, thus decreasing the use of oxygen during exercise.



in essence, your just varying which muscles are causing the demand for the higher HR rate instead of just using 'legs' like with running. So that kind of workout would be great for cardio fitness. But it's not the best for gaining size as no rest between exercises and a high HR the whole time hampers the performance of each exercise.

So, people separate them into two workouts, like Darden is suggesting. Your weight workout is geared towards building muscle, the fat burning or cardio workouts are geared to be gentle on the muscles (to not hamper muscle recovery) yet still get the metabolic rate up high for a while.




A real question:

Is cardiovascular needed for extreme fat loss?

We know of Dr Dardens studies.

But hard evidence? I do not know!


So a heavy isometric would not be good, but a circuit workout with medium to lighter loads, and anisometric contractions, would indeed be great. It's no different than running. Running contracts the leg muscles very hard, but intermittently.

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Nwlifter

entsminger wrote:
Is cardiovascular needed for extreme fat loss?

==Scott==
Is cardiovascular what needed for fat lose? Cardiovascular exercise?I guess it depends on what is ment by extreme fat loss? Are we talking a crash diet kind of fat loss like lose 20 pounds in 30 days or fat lose over extended periods. The folks in the concentration camps certainly weren't riding exercise bikes.


Needed for fat loss? for sure not.
when I was doing my 'extreme fat loss' , I did it, but more like a 'bonus' effect. When you find out that fast walking on a treadmill only burned like 180 calories, you can see it's a lot of effort for the equivalent of a piece of toast with butter. But for the 'cardio conditioning' effects, then I think it's a great thing to do.
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epdavis7

I did some knife and stick drills with a partner last night. I don't know what you want to call it, but I was pretty gassed there near the end (a little beat up too, because even rubber knives and padded sticks hurt lol). Cardio? I don't know. It was definitely anaerobic there for a bit, but the entire session excluding some extraneous stuff (dry fire pistol drills) was about 45 minutes. Fun? Absolutely. I do that type of thing 2-3 days a week (schedule depending) in addition to my once weekly HIT workout and once weekly long run and daily dog walks. With some additional recreational activity and chores thats all I need (or want) to do.
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hit4me

Florida, USA

entsminger wrote:
Is cardiovascular needed for extreme fat loss?

==Scott==
Is cardiovascular what needed for fat lose? Cardiovascular exercise?I guess it depends on what is ment by extreme fat loss? Are we talking a crash diet kind of fat loss like lose 20 pounds in 30 days or fat lose over extended periods. The folks in the concentration camps certainly weren't riding exercise bikes.


calorie deficit is the only key to fat loss
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hit4me

Florida, USA

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Nwlifter wrote:

A non stop repeated circuit training is a great cardio workout,



It most certainly is not. Certain requirements are not met.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/.../pubmed/6513767

To improve VO2 max you need to be able to contract a large number of muscle fibers simultaneously, increasing the oxygen demand, but you also need to be able to relax them quickly, too. A muscle contracted above fifty percent of its maximum will actually prevent blood from flowing into it, thus decreasing the use of oxygen during exercise.



in essence, your just varying which muscles are causing the demand for the higher HR rate instead of just using 'legs' like with running. So that kind of workout would be great for cardio fitness. But it's not the best for gaining size as no rest between exercises and a high HR the whole time hampers the performance of each exercise.

So, people separate them into two workouts, like Darden is suggesting. Your weight workout is geared towards building muscle, the fat burning or cardio workouts are geared to be gentle on the muscles (to not hamper muscle recovery) yet still get the metabolic rate up high for a while.




A real question:

Is cardiovascular needed for extreme fat loss?

We know of Dr Dardens studies.

But hard evidence? I do not know!


its pretty obvious that you do not perform circuit training correctly to get the benefit of a great cardio workout
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epdavis7

I think if I was training for hypertrophy as the emphasis I would do as David Landau has mentioned and take my time between sets to regain full composure to be able to give each set my all. I do believe that is the best for muscle development.

My emphasis is more on metabolic conditioning and I tend to do mostly all compound exercises with very little rest between sets (I train in my garage and pre-stage everything). The only "isolation" exercises (if there is such a thing) I do at the end of my workout are for my abs/lower back, neck, forearms/grip and calves/tibia as these areas are emphasized heavily in the activities I like and have chosen to do.
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Average Al

epdavis7 wrote:
I did some knife and stick drills with a partner last night. I don't know what you want to call it, but I was pretty gassed there near the end (a little beat up too, because even rubber knives and padded sticks hurt lol). Cardio? I don't know. It was definitely anaerobic there for a bit, but the entire session excluding some extraneous stuff (dry fire pistol drills) was about 45 minutes. Fun? Absolutely. I do that type of thing 2-3 days a week (schedule depending) in addition to my once weekly HIT workout and once weekly long run and daily dog walks. With some additional recreational activity and chores thats all I need (or want) to do.


I think you have covered all the bases...

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Average Al

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Nwlifter wrote:

A non stop repeated circuit training is a great cardio workout,



It most certainly is not. Certain requirements are not met.



Martin Gibala is an expert on cardio and interval training, and someone who you have cited before.

In his book, he mentions circuit training as a viable option for cardio training. It is also easy to find quotes in the press from him supporting circuit training:

"Multiple studies led by exercise physiologist Martin Gibala, PhD, the chair of the department of kinesiology at McMaster University in Hamilton, Ontario, have found that HIIT workouts can provide the same cardiovascular and muscular benefits in half to one-third the time as those endurance workouts... "

"Most of the studies on HIIT have involved one type of cardio activity, but Gibala says that this approach can also be applied to weight lifting or circuit training. "

From:
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/..._n_3276623.html

You seem to be contradicting your own preferred expert.
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hit4me

Florida, USA

Dr. Wayne Wescott has indicated that as we age into our senior years, emphasis should be placed on strength training (preferably circuit training) and then add cardio if you can....the reason is for muscle loss and bone density loss.
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epdavis7

Well I've pre-oredered both the Darden and Little books for Kindle. Its always interesting to look at different perspectives. As mentioned, the weight loss is not a concern for me, but I may give the workouts a try for some variety. Sometimes you get tired of the same old thing all the time. What was that old quote "absorb whats useful" for you and your particular circumstances and desired outcomes.
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ATP 4 Vitality

hit4me wrote:

its pretty obvious that you do not perform circuit training correctly to get the benefit of a great cardio workout


At last we have a website expert. I imagine you will start answering Dr Dardens questions now!
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ATP 4 Vitality

Average Al wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:

You seem to be contradicting your own preferred expert.



I have his book. I have read his book. I have no preferred expert. Those are your words. If you are so hung up on circuit training, Feel free to include it in YOUR routine. Perhaps you should read his book instead of Huffington Post . Then, perhaps you would not make such inflammatory posts.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

==Scott==
I keep seeing these studies by someone saying circuit training is all the cardio one might need. How many on here actually do a circuit where you are jumping from one exercise to the next fast enough to keep your respiration high?
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hit4me

Florida, USA

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
hit4me wrote:

its pretty obvious that you do not perform circuit training correctly to get the benefit of a great cardio workout

At last we have a website expert. I imagine you will start answering Dr Dardens questions now!


no expert here.....but I personally have benefited greatly from circuit training, strength and cardiovascular wise

my primary care doctor, my cardiologist, my chiropractor have all seen the benefits my training has done for my health


you speak out against it, when Dr. Darden, Arthur Jones, Dr. Wayne Wescott and other real experts have proven otherwise
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epdavis7

I have read Gibala also. Is there a specific point of contention between the Huffington post article and what he has stated in his book (I realize an article is a synopsis of his book)? I might have missed something and I am open to having that pointed out. I've read so many books over the years and I am human and can't remember everything.
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Crotalus

hit4me wrote:
Dr. Wayne Wescott has indicated that as we age into our senior years, emphasis should be placed on strength training (preferably circuit training) and then add cardio if you can....the reason is for muscle loss and bone density loss.


Yeah, when you you see old people ( or not so old ) not being able to get out of a chair, etc without assistance , it looks to be weak muscles - they just don't have the strength to do it. Never looks like it's because they're too winded ...
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epdavis7

Croatulus,

That is true. I watch my older relatives struggle with getting out of chairs, in and out of cars, carrying groceries into the house etc. If I'm around I help them out, but I imagine they struggle on their own.
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epdavis7

Scott,

I do. Train in my garage. Everything pre-staged. Once I get through the compound exercises I am literally shaking. I have to take a few breaths before I hit the ancillary exercises. I usually do legs as the last compound exercise and at times have had to go lay on the garage floor. I used to do legs first, but found I couldn't do justice to the rest of the workout.
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hit4me

Florida, USA

entsminger wrote:
==Scott==
I keep seeing these studies by someone saying circuit training is all the cardio one might need. How many on here actually do a circuit where you are jumping from one exercise to the next fast enough to keep your respiration high?


I try to as best as I can
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ATP 4 Vitality

hit4me wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:


you speak out against it, when Dr. Darden, Arthur Jones, Dr. Wayne Wescott and other real experts have proven otherwise


They have not proved circuit weight training improved cardiovascular conditioning especially VO2 max

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/.../pubmed/6513767
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Nwlifter

Crotalus wrote:
hit4me wrote:
Dr. Wayne Wescott has indicated that as we age into our senior years, emphasis should be placed on strength training (preferably circuit training) and then add cardio if you can....the reason is for muscle loss and bone density loss.

Yeah, when you you see old people ( or not so old ) not being able to get out of a chair, etc without assistance , it looks to be weak muscles - they just don't have the strength to do it. Never looks like it's because they're too winded ...


True, but seems to be both, older people get winded going up stairs.
I also think of those things I've read where some power lifters get winded just walking up to the lifting platform. If that's true....

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DuzHIT

entsminger wrote:
==Scott==
I keep seeing these studies by someone saying circuit training is all the cardio one might need. How many on here actually do a circuit where you are jumping from one exercise to the next fast enough to keep your respiration high?


I do a circuit but only once. The only rest I get is between stations.
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epdavis7

NWLifter,

Usually the powerlifters that get winded are the Super Heavies. The lower weight class guys appear very fit and sometimes have muscularity to match a bodybuilder. I think a combination of being overweight and sometimes PEDs contributes to this. They are one trick ponies at the extreme end of the strength curve. I watched a Super Heavy train squats one time and he took forever (sometimes almost 10 minutes) between sets ie wrapping and unwrapping his knees, BSing with his buddies etc. At that weight class added weight will allow you to lift more even if its just fat because of the added leverage. Strong for sure, but not fit (and probably not healthy) at all.
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1958

Texas, USA

Lightweight powerlifter
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