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"Doing more exercise with less intensity,"
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must be done . . . and quickly."
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Dr. Ken Leistner
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Peter Cage

Minnesota, USA

1958 wrote:
Leistner died way up here (I'm holding up my hand). He wasn't ill. He went out the right way.He was full of life up until the very end!
Geneticswise,his father died @ age 64...


In one of his columns in an issue of the old magazine Hard Gainer, Ken mentioned that he did not know what his genetic makeup was, as he was adopted when he was an infant.
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Chris H

entsminger wrote:
Chris H wrote:
entsminger wrote:
1958 wrote:
Leistner died way up here (I'm holding up my hand). He wasn't ill. He went out the right way.He was full of life up until the very end!
Geneticswise,his father died @ age 64...

==Scott==
Yes it would be great to die of a heart attack while doing a great set of pullovers or hustling around with my big video camera vrs just dying in my sleep. I think every soldier would much rather die charging up the hill in battle blasting at the enemy than having a stroke while sitting and watching Gilligan's Island, which happens more than not !

really, - most soldiers are 18 -30.
Im sure for all those guys who died in the way you describe, would rather have another 30, 40 or 50 years, even if the last few were miserable.
Die young and stay pretty is bullshit.

I guess I forgot to mention us old over the hill giesers would rather go that way.


yep when your over the hill, not when your still standing at the bottom.
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sgb2112

I think this guy was ready to leave life behind.. till that screaming banshee of a wife had to ruin it for him..

https://youtu.be/8hKscdTX20s
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Chris H

sirloin wrote:
Chris H wrote:
entsminger wrote:
1958 wrote:
Leistner died way up here (I'm holding up my hand). He wasn't ill. He went out the right way.He was full of life up until the very end!
Geneticswise,his father died @ age 64...

==Scott==
Yes it would be great to die of a heart attack while doing a great set of pullovers or hustling around with my big video camera vrs just dying in my sleep. I think every soldier would much rather die charging up the hill in battle blasting at the enemy than having a stroke while sitting and watching Gilligan's Island, which happens more than not !

really, - most soldiers are 18 -30.
Im sure for all those guys who died in the way you describe, would rather have another 30, 40 or 50 years, even if the last few were miserable.
Die young and stay pretty is bullshit.

Am 40, and have been told by 'experts", i shouldnt train the way i do, given i suffered a stroke at 24 and have degenerative disc syndrome, but i say let the chips fall where the may, id much rather have a shorter happy exiting existence than a long life one wrapped in cotton wool. What is bullshit, is clinging to life, rather than living it.






Hi Sirloin, have to agree with your last point.
Some people are so scared of dying, that they never truly live.
However everything has context, and that context is individual and personal.
Good to see you post, last time we "exchanged" was on Siscos forum a few months back - "remember the idiot Mark Winchester, who makes Grant seem sane- I.E - i set of TBDL every 3 - 6 months"
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StuKE

This thread has been busy since I last looked. I must admit, I did fund myself wondering if the massivy intense workouts contributed to Dr Ken's death.

It makes me think back to when I started training, or at least within a few years and I would often hear from people telling me it will wreck my joints etc. Everyone would have somethibg negative to say about the weights, how the muscle will turn to fat when I am older etc...
My Dad got rheumatoid arthritis telatively young, it has wreaked havoc on his body, worst some of the doctors he has been to have ever seen. My Dad did not lift weights or do any particular sport on a regular basis. My thoughts are, well I could get ruined joints whether I lift or not, how many 60 year old s (eg) have no joint problems? I can't think of any, so what the hell, might as well lift anyway, could possibly even help prevent some of the problems.

This business of red lining it though, pushing to the limit, I have had my doubts for a long time. It's like driving a car foot to the floor all the time, it might not ruin your car, but if there is any weakness, driving like that will likely expose it. This high intensitu interval training, yrah it might get your cardiovascular system fit quickly but it could also mess you up if you have any underlying issues.

I once read that the best activities for supporting a long life were those that were gentle, relatively lenghty in duration and in the good old outdoors- gentle gardening, gold etc. I can well believe it

Not going to stop me lifting, but although I train pretty hard now, there is little grinding or to failure.
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StuKE

Quitr a few people at work have just run the London Marathon. Fair play to them, but I don't have any time for it myself. Running a marathon is vwry much viewed as the ultimate teat of fitness around here. I think that view is woefully misguided. I personally suspect running is equal parts healthy and bad for you yes, it works your heart, lungs, legs and so on, but I believe the repeated impact can cause all sorts, of health problems, plus the runners around here run right next to the busy main road, makes little sense to me.

Many distance runners are skinny and suffer from colds etc, always seem run down. Obviously I cant speak for them all, but I see this a lot. Then I see Mo Farah, skinny as they come, telling us to eat #####, a healthy source of protein! No disreapect, Mo, but if that is what healthy looks like, it's not for me. Ihear of fae more people dropping during/after a run than I do Cy lists (barring accidents) and those lifting weights.

Ok, rant ends. The point is, we choose our activities and I think weights is as good as any. We can do it to the best of our ability, or well within and still reap rewards.
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Crotalus

StuKE wrote:


This business of red lining it though, pushing to the limit, I have had my doubts for a long time.

I once read that the best activities for supporting a long life were those that were gentle, relatively lenghty in duration and in the good old outdoors- gentle gardening, gold etc. I can well believe it

Not going to stop me lifting, but although I train pretty hard now, there is little grinding or to failure.


------------
STUKE : Check your PM's.
------------

I've given this some thought too over the years, but like i said in another post, I find it very hard to stop a set short of failure after years of reading Leistner, Darden and Jones material.

Yesterday doing Back and Biceps I did I manage to do stop sets one rep short of it on the compound movements and still had a fantastic workout . I did three sets of each exercise instead of the usual two ... not that the added volume makes up for intensity, but it was still a killer workout.

Like you said , you pick what you want to do and do it despite the dangers that come with it. You have to live your life.
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sirloin

Chris H wrote:
sirloin wrote:
Chris H wrote:
entsminger wrote:
1958 wrote:
Leistner died way up here (I'm holding up my hand). He wasn't ill. He went out the right way.He was full of life up until the very end!
Geneticswise,his father died @ age 64...

==Scott==
Yes it would be great to die of a heart attack while doing a great set of pullovers or hustling around with my big video camera vrs just dying in my sleep. I think every soldier would much rather die charging up the hill in battle blasting at the enemy than having a stroke while sitting and watching Gilligan's Island, which happens more than not !

really, - most soldiers are 18 -30.
Im sure for all those guys who died in the way you describe, would rather have another 30, 40 or 50 years, even if the last few were miserable.
Die young and stay pretty is bullshit.

Am 40, and have been told by 'experts", i shouldnt train the way i do, given i suffered a stroke at 24 and have degenerative disc syndrome, but i say let the chips fall where the may, id much rather have a shorter happy exiting existence than a long life one wrapped in cotton wool. What is bullshit, is clinging to life, rather than living it.






Hi Sirloin, have to agree with your last point.
Some people are so scared of dying, that they never truly live.
However everything has context, and that context is individual and personal.
Good to see you post, last time we "exchanged" was on Siscos forum a few months back - "remember the idiot Mark Winchester, who makes Grant seem sane- I.E - i set of TBDL every 3 - 6 months"


Hey Chris,

Ha, lovely guy he was lol. Good to see you made it here:)
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Brian A Schamber

Texas, USA

The man was a legend and the 407 X 23 squat at 52 years old and 160 was super impressive.
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Chris H

Brian A Schamber wrote:
The man was a legend and the 407 X 23 squat at 52 years old and 160 was super impressive.


humbling i think.

His strength was ridiculous for a natural {assumed} particularly at 160 which did not appear heavy muscle wise for his frame.
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spud

Perhaps someone can help me here.

My favourite Ken Leistner quote was something along the lines of:

"There's nothing intense about a 2 hour workout that should have lasted 40 minutes."

There's a lot of wisdom, insight, learning etc in those few words. More than many people will ever appreciate.

Does anyone have the exact wording from the Steel Tip or wherever it may have come from?
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spud

epdavis7 wrote:
This was the Dr Ken workout he put on video. He was 53 and about 160lbs.

Overhead Press - 253 x 4

Full Oly Squat - 407 x 23

Stiff Legged Dead off of a High Box (full lower with round back) - 347 x 14

Log Clean (from Hang) & Push Press - 216 x 3

Shrug (strapped) - 347 x 13

Nautilus Pullover (slow eccentric) - 160 x 9

Farmer's Walk Bar Shrugs - 119 x 11

Strict Barbell Curl - 154 x 4 plus 2 with some swing

All done one after the other. And he put all the plates back up when done. Definitely one of a kind.


Here is that workout. Uploaded by Michael Petrella who used to post on this forum.

Using the timer on the video footage, and on YouTube itself, the whole thing took about 35 minutes (The actual training).

Things I noted:

- There wasn't a lot of downtime. It was basically just Ken changing his own plates and then going again.

- Everything he did after the stiff legged deadlifts seemed to suffer because the squat and stiff legged deadlift combo killed him.

- When he's shrugging at the end he has some shoulders and triceps!

- His accent is pure gold. He could have appeared as an enforcer in so many gangster films.

- His use of swearing is excellent. After rep 14 of the squats: "F*ck!....I'm good."

- The soundtrack is awesome.

- The use of warm up sets is quite instructive.

- I've heard about this workout for around 15 years and never seen it until today.

https://www.youtube.com/...h?v=ht1ft5ub-wM
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Crotalus

spud wrote::

- Everything he did after the stiff legged deadlifts seemed to suffer because the squat and stiff legged deadlift combo killed him.



I remember him stating somewhere - probably in the Steel Tip - that starting your workout with a big movement and going all out sets the stage for the rest of the workout.

If that exercise was squats or deadlifts and you were 'successful' with what you were shooting for with that set yet the rest of the workout suffered because of it, the workout was still a success. I don't agree with that any longer, but for a long time I followed that lead.

But think about it ... how many guys HIS SIZE could squat over 400 lbs for over 20 reps and still have enough left to SLD, Press and Curl with the weights he used ??

Dr. Ken was just amazing ....
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frostyF

Arkansas, USA

Mr spud,
Excellent synopsis! During college days I trained with/under the watchful eye of the iconic Doug Holland,who was a Leistner long distance trainee.Doug was careful about limiting my warm-ups.He insisted more on getting the feel of the movement,saving myself for the ugly discomfort to come.It was totally different from what I was "taught" at the commercial gym,but it worked wonders! Doug is still at it today.I visit him once every two years or so.
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frostyF

Arkansas, USA

Another great thing about the video was watching Ken strip all the equipment and re-rack his own weights when he was done.
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dipsrule

Pennsylvania, USA

Crotalus wrote:
spud wrote::

- Everything he did after the stiff legged deadlifts seemed to suffer because the squat and stiff legged deadlift combo killed him.



I remember him stating somewhere - probably in the Steel Tip - that starting your workout with a big movement and going all out sets the stage for the rest of the workout.

If that exercise was squats or deadlifts and you were 'successful' with what you were shooting for with that set yet the rest of the workout suffered because of it, the workout was still a success. I don't agree with that any longer, but for a long time I followed that lead.

But think about it ... how many guys HIS SIZE could squat over 400 lbs for over 20 reps and still have enough left to SLD, Press and Curl with the weights he used ??

Dr. Ken was just amazing ....








I have read and have a lot of his articles.

I have met him as well. We talked via e-mail.

I bought a compound leg from him years ago.

I don't remember where I read it but he talks about getting stronger on the lifts with little to no rest between moves.

More or less if you are making progress on the lifts with no rest or after something like squats you still making progress.

I don't look at it as my other exercises have suffered. You just won't be able to lift as much as you would with a longer rest period.

Iv'e talk to him about different exercises. He had already said I could use any order.

He may have written about doing presses before deadlifts so your low back won't take as much of a beating if you did them after deadlifts.


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spud


Overhead Press - 253 x 4

Full Oly Squat - 407 x 23

Stiff Legged Dead off of a High Box (full lower with round back) - 347 x 14

Log Clean (from Hang) & Push Press - 216 x 3

Shrug (strapped) - 347 x 13

Nautilus Pullover (slow eccentric) - 160 x 9

Farmer's Walk Bar Shrugs - 119 x 11

Strict Barbell Curl - 154 x 4 plus 2 with some swing


Having reflected on this for a few days, I don't really get why he shrugged twice and pressed twice.

I also don't like the fact he only did 7 reps of pressing with weight that was so heavy. I'd have rather see him go for higher reps with 160-180.
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HeavyHitter32

spud wrote:

Overhead Press - 253 x 4

Full Oly Squat - 407 x 23

Stiff Legged Dead off of a High Box (full lower with round back) - 347 x 14

Log Clean (from Hang) & Push Press - 216 x 3

Shrug (strapped) - 347 x 13

Nautilus Pullover (slow eccentric) - 160 x 9

Farmer's Walk Bar Shrugs - 119 x 11

Strict Barbell Curl - 154 x 4 plus 2 with some swing

Having reflected on this for a few days, I don't really get why he shrugged twice and pressed twice.

I also don't like the fact he only did 7 reps of pressing with weight that was so heavy. I'd have rather see him go for higher reps with 160-180.


I've seen so many routines where delts and especially traps are overworked.
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epdavis7

spud wrote:

Overhead Press - 253 x 4

Full Oly Squat - 407 x 23

Stiff Legged Dead off of a High Box (full lower with round back) - 347 x 14

Log Clean (from Hang) & Push Press - 216 x 3

Shrug (strapped) - 347 x 13

Nautilus Pullover (slow eccentric) - 160 x 9

Farmer's Walk Bar Shrugs - 119 x 11

Strict Barbell Curl - 154 x 4 plus 2 with some swing

Having reflected on this for a few days, I don't really get why he shrugged twice and pressed twice.

I also don't like the fact he only did 7 reps of pressing with weight that was so heavy. I'd have rather see him go for higher reps with 160-180.


I remember reading somewhere that Dr Ken said he could never improve on overhead pressing with higher reps. He would stagnate and never move forward. When he dropped the reps and increased the weight he was able to progress again. The exact opposite on how he responded to squats and sldl.
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AI1963

Has anyone heard from a reliable source what was Dr. Leistner's cause of death?

I've seen things posted online that seemed more speculative than authoritative.
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Eric B.

AI1963 wrote:
Has anyone heard from a reliable source what was Dr. Leistner's cause of death?

I've seen things posted online that seemed more speculative than authoritative.


I've been concerned about that too. Maybe with time his family will mention what happened.

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featherandbone

Hey, Bariann (daughter of Dr Ken) here. Was just looking up my dad and saw this thread. Still waiting on autopsy results - however thought I should let you know my dad was adopted. Really trying to work out genetics as I inherited a blood clotting disorder from my father. Had been complaining of back pain a week before his death. When we know what happened I have no problem passing on information for those that are interested - thank you for keeping my dad's memory alive (despite his hard ass method of training which I in no way have enough energy to even attempt)
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featherandbone

Daughter here. Still waiting on results
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AI1963

featherandbone wrote:
Daughter here. Still waiting on results


Bariann:

Sincere condolences from a fan of your father.

How considerate and candid of you to post here despite your bereavement.

I believe most here have a genuine and caring interest in what happened to one of our own. While we all must pass, the premature and unexpected departure of someone who seemed like the indestructible man - that is what your Father seemed to me, at least - was a sorrowful shock.

I never had the pleasure of meeting your Father in the flesh but did exchange a precious few correspondences with him. He was generous and helpful.

Again, THANK YOU.

With deepest sympathy to you and your family.
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Eric B.

Hello Bariann, thank you very much for offering to let us know. I'm sorry for what your family has had to face and is going through. It's such a shock.

In some of your dad's articles he mentioned being adopted, and he also occasionally brought up the blood clotting disorder and other physical challenges he faced.

I'm yet another who's benefitted from your dad's generosity.

Eric

featherandbone wrote:
Hey, Bariann (daughter of Dr Ken) here. Was just looking up my dad and saw this thread. Still waiting on autopsy results - however thought I should let you know my dad was adopted. Really trying to work out genetics as I inherited a blood clotting disorder from my father. Had been complaining of back pain a week before his death. When we know what happened I have no problem passing on information for those that are interested - thank you for keeping my dad's memory alive (despite his hard ass method of training which I in no way have enough energy to even attempt)


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