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30-10-30 Sore Joints?
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Bill MacLean

Summary:
1. 56 years old, and have not experienced sore knees from workout (typical full body HIT) in the past.

2. I've only done 30-10-30 twice so far and really like it. But both times, have experienced sore knee joints for 3 to 4 days. What have other people found?

3. Dr Darden is the man! I love this board, love his books, and meeting him at REC a few years ago was a real high point for me.

Detail (Warning, verbose)
I have been trying 30-10-30 and think it shows real promise. Have only done it for two weeks (that's just two workouts!). It really zaps me, which is good.

I am having a problem with sore knee joints on the protocol, and want to know if anyone else does. Because it is just once a week, and I am looking for inroad, I do leg extensions immediately followed by leg press. My gym has Medx, so I'm confident that the issue is not related to machine design.

I am almost 56 and have been doing extensions and leg press forever. Before trying 30-10-30, I would work out twice a week, and alternate pre-exhaust cycles. One workout, I would pre-exhaust legs and shoulders, and the next workout I would pre-exhaust chest and back.

I am missing the anterior cruciate ligament in my left knee from an old injury in high school, but I think that is not the issue.


With 30-10-30 pre-exhaust, I experience soreness in *both* knees for three or four days after the workout. It's not too bad, but a bit annoying. I can actually feel it when doing the leg press, but it gets a worse after the workout is over.

30-10-30 has a max TUT of 90 seconds. My traditional HIT set would be TUT of 48 to 96 seconds, but as I find it very difficult to increase reps, I think my regular TUT is around 60 secs. Do you think that extra 30 seconds or so is making my knees sore?
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hit4me

Florida, USA

Been doing 30-10-30 for a couple months and have experienced no soreness in the joints
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Resultsbased

Bill MacLean wrote:
Summary:
1. 56 years old, and have not experienced sore knees from workout (typical full body HIT) in the past.

2. I've only done 30-10-30 twice so far and really like it. But both times, have experienced sore knee joints for 3 to 4 days. What have other people found?

3. Dr Darden is the man! I love this board, love his books, and meeting him at REC a few years ago was a real high point for me.

Detail (Warning, verbose)
I have been trying 30-10-30 and think it shows real promise. Have only done it for two weeks (that's just two workouts!). It really zaps me, which is good.

I am having a problem with sore knee joints on the protocol, and want to know if anyone else does. Because it is just once a week, and I am looking for inroad, I do leg extensions immediately followed by leg press. My gym has Medx, so I'm confident that the issue is not related to machine design.

I am almost 56 and have been doing extensions and leg press forever. Before trying 30-10-30, I would work out twice a week, and alternate pre-exhaust cycles. One workout, I would pre-exhaust legs and shoulders, and the next workout I would pre-exhaust chest and back.

I am missing the anterior cruciate ligament in my left knee from an old injury in high school, but I think that is not the issue.


With 30-10-30 pre-exhaust, I experience soreness in *both* knees for three or four days after the workout. It's not too bad, but a bit annoying. I can actually feel it when doing the leg press, but it gets a worse after the workout is over.

30-10-30 has a max TUT of 90 seconds. My traditional HIT set would be TUT of 48 to 96 seconds, but as I find it very difficult to increase reps, I think my regular TUT is around 60 secs. Do you think that extra 30 seconds or so is making my knees sore?



Anytime I use a slow tempo (slower than 4/4) my joints suffer and I'm in pain - regardless of what the SuperSlow zealots claim, slower reps are not always better for the joints.

A brisk, rhythmic cadence is much more joint friendly for me.
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Ellington Darden

Hi Bill,

I believe the following will help prevent your sore knees:

1) Get two Ace bandages. You are going to wrap both of your knees.

2) Begin the wrapping below your knee and move upward, while keeping your knee straight.

3) Wrap over the knee in a medium-tight manner.

4) Continue up the thigh about 3 inches and secure it.

5) Do the same thing with your other knee.

6) Stand up and make sure the wraps are not too tight. At the same time, you want to secure and stabilize the knee caps.

7) Do your 30-10-30 leg extensions and leg presses.

8) Get off the leg press machine and take off the Ace bandages.

9) Continue with the rest of your workout.

Those guidelines should help with your knee soreness. Let me know if they work?

Ellington
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

== Scott==
I found after a month or so of doing 30 second negative chins my elbows started feeling tender.
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Average Al

I haven't tried 30-10-30, so I can't offer any first hand experience. But here are some general thoughts, based on what I know about the protocol.

First, can you be more specific about what you mean by sore knees? Are you having muscle pain in the muscles around the knee, or is it in the connective tissues (tendons or ligaments), or is it more of a sharp pain within the joint that comes from arthritis?

If you have some arthritis, doing workouts at a reduced frequency (once per week vs twice) might make pain worse, because regular movement of arthritic joints is supposed to help with pain.

If not, perhaps the faster cadence from the middle reps of the 30-10-30 has triggered some tendonosis/tendonitis?

If it is muscle soreness, then the greater emphasis on eccentrics, coupled with the longer recovery time might lead to greater DOMS. (I have more muscle soreness after a workout, if I only train once a week; twice a week training reduces DOMS for me.)

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Bill MacLean

Dr Darden, I will try the ACE bandages, thanks for the tip! I really like the inroad from 30-10-30 so I want to stick with it.

Al: Good questions. Though I know the feeling of muscle soreness well, I am fortunately not very experienced with arthritis pain. I once had tennis elbow, which I believe is tendonitis. The knee pain doesn't seem muscular to me.

This pain comes from the joint itself and is sharp when sitting or rising. Logic says that I must have some osteoarthritis in at least my left knee because I have been missing the ACL and meniscus for 38 years.

I had an MRI a long time ago that indicated at least part of the meniscus had regenerated. About 20 years ago I got my knee checked out prior to fencing. No MRI that time, but the ortho's x-ray showed a nice normal looking gap between the bones, and the ends looked clean.

The pain is in my right knee too. The eye-opener for me is that with 30-10-30 I am using only 80% of my normal weight, yet experiencing some joint pain. Maybe there is something to your point about the faster cadence of the intervening reps.

You brought up a good point about frequency: I have found that the maximum "no workout" interval is about 3 weeks before my left knee starts to hurt. I've on occasion (sick, lots of travel, etc) gone that long, and I notice it.
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Average Al

Bill MacLean wrote:

The pain is in my right knee too. The eye-opener for me is that with 30-10-30 I am using only 80% of my normal weight, yet experiencing some joint pain. Maybe there is something to your point about the faster cadence of the intervening reps.



As your speed of movement picks up, you will experience greater force at the eccentric-to-concentric transition due to momentum changes. You would only need a 20% increase in acceleration to offset the 20% reduction in weight. So, depending on how fast you are trying to reverse direction, I suppose you might actually be seeing more force on the joint at that end of the ROM.

The simplest thing to do is just slow down the middle reps a bit. Instead of 10 reps at 1/2, try 5 reps at 2/4. Focus on doing a smooth and controlled turnaround. See if that reduces the pain.

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Average Al

So much for posting in the AM before having some coffee... almost as soon as I hit submit, I realized I'd made an error in my previous post:

A 20% increase in acceleration doesn't automatically offset a 20% reduction in weight. It depends on how much momentum force exists in the first place.

Lets say that at a normal 2/4 cadence, you produce 5% more force during an eccentric to concentric transition. If you increase acceleration by 20% in going to a 1/2 cadence, then you will produce 6% more force at the start of the movement. If the change in cadence is combined with a 20% reduction in weight, you will still be using less force at the faster cadence and lighter weight.

Still... it is hard to know how much momentum is coming into play without a way to measure it. So perhaps you are overdoing it more than you realize when trying to bang out those higher cadence reps?

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Bill MacLean

Did 30-10-30 yesterday, but my knees were still a bit sore so I skipped leg extension and leg press altogether. Next week, I'll try Dr Darden's ace bandage trick and let everyone know how it went. If I still have trouble, I may consider slowing he cadence of the normal reps.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

Bill MacLean wrote:
Did 30-10-30 yesterday, but my knees were still a bit sore so I skipped leg extension and leg press altogether. Next week, I'll try Dr Darden's ace bandage trick and let everyone know how it went. If I still have trouble, I may consider slowing he cadence of the normal reps.


==Scott==
I'm curious if your knees ever got sore doing other leg exercises?
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Bill MacLean

Scott: My knees have not gotten sore doing other exercises.

All: I just did my weekly 30-10-30 workout. I was going to try Dr Darden's Ace bandage idea, but the gym I belong to (Basic Training in Scottsdale AZ) just got an old Nautilus Duo Squat and completely rehabbed it! I couldn't resist.

This is the version with the the 510 lb stack and it still has the infimetric bar. I did a set of 13 and finished off with infimetric. Didn't use that much weight because haven't used a duo squat for many years. Infimetric is difficult, especially at end of set.

Did the rest of the workout 30-10-30.

Next week I will try the leg extension with Ace bandage followed by duo squat. I am not sure exactly how one could adaqpt the 30-10-30 protocol to the duo squat.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

Bill MacLean wrote:
Scott: My knees have not gotten sore doing other exercises.

All: I just did my weekly 30-10-30 workout. I was going to try Dr Darden's Ace bandage idea, but the gym I belong to (Basic Training in Scottsdale AZ) just got an old Nautilus Duo Squat and completely rehabbed it! I couldn't resist.

This is the version with the the 510 lb stack and it still has the infimetric bar. I did a set of 13 and finished off with infimetric. Didn't use that much weight because haven't used a duo squat for many years. Infimetric is difficult, especially at end of set.

Did the rest of the workout 30-10-30.

Next week I will try the leg extension with Ace bandage followed by duo squat. I am not sure exactly how one could adaqpt the 30-10-30 protocol to the duo squat.


==Scott==
Just my worthless opinion but I would shy away from any exercise that causes pain in my knees or anywhere else. I think the notion that it might help to wrap up you knees or whatever is a good signal to not do that exercise.
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HeavyHitter32

Bill MacLean wrote:
Did 30-10-30 yesterday, but my knees were still a bit sore so I skipped leg extension and leg press altogether. Next week, I'll try Dr Darden's ace bandage trick and let everyone know how it went. If I still have trouble, I may consider slowing he cadence of the normal reps.


I've encountered my knees bothering me with slower reps (instead of regular) on the leg press. My only guess is because many of us have at least some minor arthritis and going through those particular areas of the knee with a slower movement over-emphasized them. So maybe you're hitting the bad area for several seconds where as with a normal cadence it's something like 1/4 or 1/2 second.

It's like driving down a dirt road with some pot holes. Sometimes it's just better to ride faster through them!
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hit4me

Florida, USA

could it be too much weight to start with...maybe decrease the weight and give the joints enough time to get used to the negative aspect of the training before increasing weight
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Bill MacLean

Update:
A few days ago, I did my 30-10-30 workout. I decided to do the leg extension and Duo Squat in a pre-exhaust cycle. I thus skipped the leg press. No knee pain, and I haven't yet had to use wraps.

Granted, I've not really cranked up the weight yet on the Duo Squat, but I think the angle might be better for my knees.

I'm not sure the Duo Squat is the best machine for doing 30-10-30, as I think there may be a fair amount of friction that makes the negative easier. However, my quads, hams and glutes are quite sore, so that's good!

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Crotalus

Bill;

No problem at all with the neck / shoulders in the Duo Squat ? Many years ago I was at a YMCA that had a lot of the old Nautilus.

I was so excited to try the Duo Squat but couldn't because of the pressure pain on the neck and shoulders. I couldn't even concentrate on legs it was so bad. I remember only one guy there who could do it without a problem.

Maybe you have the one with the improved seat ?
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