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Muscle 72% Water: Training and Drug Effects
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Equity

I remember Mike Mentzer (and possibly Dr. D himself) stating the above, that muscles are 72 percent water. This correlates with Dr. Darden's, Mentzer and I believe Jones's emphasis on carbohydrates rather than protein in a trainee's diet as glycogen is a blend of carbs and water.

Getting to my point I'm wondering how much a training protocol could perhaps alter this, even to the extent of one way or the other. Sarcoplasm vs Myofibrilliar?

Also anabolics and their water retaining properties in muscle tissue.

Also is the 72 percent model based on the average person not resistance trainees?

All comments.

Thank you.
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ATP 4 Vitality

Runners, endurance trainees, have been carb-loading for years. They are the experts! However, HITers dismiss this information. There is NO such things as aerobics according to their expertise!
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Ellington Darden

I believe people with more muscle than average, would have more than 72% of their body composed of water. You can't go wrong by drinking more water each day.

Ellington

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Chris H

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Runners, endurance trainees, have been carb-loading for years. They are the experts! However, HITers dismiss this information. There is NO such things as aerobics according to their expertise!


that's true, but lifters are not endurance athletes, particularly not your average gym goer.
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Nwlifter

Sarcoplasm is a protein gel, so it's not water. Carb loading can pull more water in the cells, so I imagine it would change the percentage a bit. But carbs won't add to or continue to build muscle tissue (the protein structures), they will just keep the glycogen storage higher.
Think of a muscle cell like a swimming pool. The structure of the pool is protein, inside the pool is water. You can fill the pool up, but how do you make the pool bigger? Try to cram more water in it that it can hold? No you have to make the pool structure bigger so it 'can' hold more water.
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ATP 4 Vitality

Chris H wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Runners, endurance trainees, have been carb-loading for years. They are the experts! However, HITers dismiss this information. There is NO such things as aerobics according to their expertise!

that's true, but lifters are not endurance athletes, particularly not your average gym goer.


Does not change the facts or logic
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Equity

Thanks to all for the replies.

So the percentage is variable and the 72 figure is probably an average based on non trainees?

Dr. Darden; would someone with greater muscle mass require a slightly higher sodium (and potassium?) intake compared to an average person because they carry more water?

Nwlifter; good analogy but what is protein gel?

Regards.
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Equity

Come to think of it, why are there no RDA's or RDI's on food packaging for potassium but there are for 'Salt'? Assuming they just mean sodium and not potassium.

Thanks.
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Nwlifter

Equity wrote:
Thanks to all for the replies.

So the percentage is variable and the 72 figure is probably an average based on non trainees?

Dr. Darden; would someone with greater muscle mass require a slightly higher sodium (and potassium?) intake compared to an average person because they carry more water?

Nwlifter; good analogy but what is protein gel?


It's protein that bonds together to form a gel rather than a solid rigid structure.

I imagine trained people have almost that identical water percentage, cells cannot survive if things like that get too far off. Maybe people like long distance runners have a bit more water when the carb load, but then again, the ratio of glycogen to water stays the same to it still might end up the same percentage of 'solid to H2O' as a ratio.

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Chris H

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Chris H wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Runners, endurance trainees, have been carb-loading for years. They are the experts! However, HITers dismiss this information. There is NO such things as aerobics according to their expertise!

that's true, but lifters are not endurance athletes, particularly not your average gym goer.

Does not change the facts or logic


it may in regard to lifters, particularly those staying in shape as opposed to the hardcore high volume crowd.

I.E unless one is engaging in endurance training is there a need carb load, is all i am saying
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

Chris H wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Chris H wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Runners, endurance trainees, have been carb-loading for years. They are the experts! However, HITers dismiss this information. There is NO such things as aerobics according to their expertise!

that's true, but lifters are not endurance athletes, particularly not your average gym goer.

Does not change the facts or logic

it may in regard to lifters, particularly those staying in shape as opposed to the hardcore high volume crowd.

I.E unless one is engaging in endurance training is there a need carb load, is all i am saying


== Scott==
I used to endurance train quite a bit and never carb loaded. Many guys around me who endurance trained often carbo loaded but most were very skinny runner types who probably needed the extra carbs as in my opinion didn?t eat enough to keep a mouse alive. When running and biking and swimming and working out I could eat like a pig and not put on weight so no need for extra carbs that would just make me fatter.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

Chris H wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Chris H wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Runners, endurance trainees, have been carb-loading for years. They are the experts! However, HITers dismiss this information. There is NO such things as aerobics according to their expertise!

that's true, but lifters are not endurance athletes, particularly not your average gym goer.

Does not change the facts or logic

it may in regard to lifters, particularly those staying in shape as opposed to the hardcore high volume crowd.

I.E unless one is engaging in endurance training is there a need carb load, is all i am saying


== Scott==
Just my worthless opinion but I see no reason to carb load before a workout or any other time. I?ve never found it made any difference in my energy during an event or workout.
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Nwlifter

entsminger wrote:
Chris H wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Chris H wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Runners, endurance trainees, have been carb-loading for years. They are the experts! However, HITers dismiss this information. There is NO such things as aerobics according to their expertise!

that's true, but lifters are not endurance athletes, particularly not your average gym goer.

Does not change the facts or logic

it may in regard to lifters, particularly those staying in shape as opposed to the hardcore high volume crowd.

I.E unless one is engaging in endurance training is there a need carb load, is all i am saying

== Scott==
Just my worthless opinion but I see no reason to carb load before a workout or any other time. I?ve never found it made any difference in my energy during an event or workout.


True, no weight workout will ever deplete glycogen like a marathon run would. That kinda thing is really the only place carb loading can help.
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ATP 4 Vitality

Chris H wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Chris H wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Runners, endurance trainees, have been carb-loading for years. They are the experts! However, HITers dismiss this information. There is NO such things as aerobics according to their expertise!

that's true, but lifters are not endurance athletes, particularly not your average gym goer.

Does not change the facts or logic

it may in regard to lifters, particularly those staying in shape as opposed to the hardcore high volume crowd.

I.E unless one is engaging in endurance training is there a need carb load, is all i am saying


I carb load (the way I define loading) on workout days. Helps my performance and recovery in weight workouts better than for cardiovascular workouts. I do not feel that I need carb loading for cardiovascular conditioning.
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Chris H

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Chris H wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Chris H wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Runners, endurance trainees, have been carb-loading for years. They are the experts! However, HITers dismiss this information. There is NO such things as aerobics according to their expertise!

that's true, but lifters are not endurance athletes, particularly not your average gym goer.

Does not change the facts or logic

it may in regard to lifters, particularly those staying in shape as opposed to the hardcore high volume crowd.

I.E unless one is engaging in endurance training is there a need carb load, is all i am saying

I carb load (the way I define loading) on workout days. Helps my performance and recovery in weight workouts better than for cardiovascular workouts. I do not feel that I need carb loading for cardiovascular conditioning.


Thanks Marc,

for you, is that a higher carb meal a few hours before lifting and/or maybe after for recovery ?
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PTDaniel

I was on a very low carb diet back in the 1996. One night while working an overnight shift a package of Brach's caramel cremes broke open and I ate the whole bag. The next day my physique looked very different. I was around 8 pounds heavier and so full and vascular it blew my mind. I must have loaded my muscles with glycogen, which then attracted water into the muscle causing the dramatic increase in vascularity and fullness. 1 gram of glycogen will attract 4 grams of water.

My best friend cycles various anabolics. He's a vegan and looks flabby off cycle despite having only 13% bodyfat. When he's on cycle his muscles get much rounder, fuller, and vascular, not just bigger. I don't know if the steroids increase his muscle glycogen and water, but the effect is similar to what I experienced when I inadvertently carb loaded in 1996.
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hit4me

Florida, USA

if you eat a carb rich diet as suggested by Dr. Darden, then there should be no need to carb load
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PTDaniel

Nwlifter wrote:
Sarcoplasm is a protein gel, so it's not water. Carb loading can pull more water in the cells, so I imagine it would change the percentage a bit. But carbs won't add to or continue to build muscle tissue (the protein structures), they will just keep the glycogen storage higher.
Think of a muscle cell like a swimming pool. The structure of the pool is protein, inside the pool is water. You can fill the pool up, but how do you make the pool bigger? Try to cram more water in it that it can hold? No you have to make the pool structure bigger so it 'can' hold more water.


The muscle cell membrane is flexible and can expand unlike a pool. You can expand human muscle cells enough that you do not even need a microscope to see the individual cells.

Also the muscle is a permeable membrane unlike a pool. You can increase the osmotic pressure outside of the muscle and it will take in fluid to equalize pressure. Something like a "pump" from training will probably cause this, so yes you can cram more water into the muscle. People also inject with "site enhancement oils" to do this. They cause muscular inflammation which is essentially the muscle filling with more water.

As the muscle cell grows, there's more organelles increasing in number and size than just myofibrils. You can increase nuclei, mitochondria, ribosomes, etc.
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ATP 4 Vitality

Chris H wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Chris H wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Chris H wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Runners, endurance trainees, have been carb-loading for years. They are the experts! However, HITers dismiss this information. There is NO such things as aerobics according to their expertise!

that's true, but lifters are not endurance athletes, particularly not your average gym goer.

Does not change the facts or logic

it may in regard to lifters, particularly those staying in shape as opposed to the hardcore high volume crowd.

I.E unless one is engaging in endurance training is there a need carb load, is all i am saying

I carb load (the way I define loading) on workout days. Helps my performance and recovery in weight workouts better than for cardiovascular workouts. I do not feel that I need carb loading for cardiovascular conditioning.

Thanks Marc,

for you, is that a higher carb meal a few hours before lifting and/or maybe after for recovery ?


Mas o menos
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ATP 4 Vitality

hit4me wrote:
if you eat a carb rich diet as suggested by Dr. Darden, then there should be no need to carb load


Stupid comment!

Dr. Dardens high carb meals are CALORIE deficient. There is zero carb loading!

Talk about something you know something about!
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ATP 4 Vitality

Years ago during a BBing contest in Atlanta Ga., I was hanging around J J Marsh and John Parillo. J J wanted me to shout out twisting back pose while he was posing. He did not win though.


However,

While outside talking to J J prior to the contest, 3 prepped brownies were eaten by him. I personally observed his veins popping and his muscles swelling. His forearms looked to explode. Seeing is believing.
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hit4me

Florida, USA

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
hit4me wrote:
if you eat a carb rich diet as suggested by Dr. Darden, then there should be no need to carb load

Stupid comment!

Dr. Dardens high carb meals are CALORIE deficient. There is zero carb loading!

Talk about something you know something about!


Only calorie deficient if you are trying to lose weight, however if you are trying to maintain or gain weight then it would not be calorie deficient.....the carb/protein and fat ratio would still be the same....dumbshit you are
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ATP 4 Vitality

hit4me wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
hit4me wrote:
if you eat a carb rich diet as suggested by Dr. Darden, then there should be no need to carb load

Stupid comment!

Dr. Dardens high carb meals are CALORIE deficient. There is zero carb loading!

Talk about something you know something about!

Only calorie deficient if you are trying to lose weight, however if you are trying to maintain or gain weight then it would not be calorie deficient.....the carb/protein and fat ratio would still be the same....dumbshit you are


ZZzzzzzzzzzz!
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Chris H

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Chris H wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Chris H wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Chris H wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Runners, endurance trainees, have been carb-loading for years. They are the experts! However, HITers dismiss this information. There is NO such things as aerobics according to their expertise!

that's true, but lifters are not endurance athletes, particularly not your average gym goer.

Does not change the facts or logic

it may in regard to lifters, particularly those staying in shape as opposed to the hardcore high volume crowd.

I.E unless one is engaging in endurance training is there a need carb load, is all i am saying

I carb load (the way I define loading) on workout days. Helps my performance and recovery in weight workouts better than for cardiovascular workouts. I do not feel that I need carb loading for cardiovascular conditioning.

Thanks Marc,

for you, is that a higher carb meal a few hours before lifting and/or maybe after for recovery ?

Mas o menos


Thanks Marc
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Chris H

PTDaniel wrote:
I was on a very low carb diet back in the 1996. One night while working an overnight shift a package of Brach's caramel cremes broke open and I ate the whole bag. The next day my physique looked very different. I was around 8 pounds heavier and so full and vascular it blew my mind. I must have loaded my muscles with glycogen, which then attracted water into the muscle causing the dramatic increase in vascularity and fullness. 1 gram of glycogen will attract 4 grams of water.

My best friend cycles various anabolics. He's a vegan and looks flabby off cycle despite having only 13% bodyfat. When he's on cycle his muscles get much rounder, fuller, and vascular, not just bigger. I don't know if the steroids increase his muscle glycogen and water, but the effect is similar to what I experienced when I inadvertently carb loaded in 1996.


i've experienced the same thing.

Ifi go low starchy carb/simple sugars for more than 3 days then eat a high carb/sugar laden meal i blow up, but lean not bloated.
Vince Gironda even on his steak and eggs cutting diet advocated this carb meal re-feed every 3/4 days to replenish glycogen.
I see why
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